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10-23-18 01:10 PM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Inivitabilty, or choice?
  
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Gan Ning
Posts: 118/278
This is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Vulkar, you claim the only things that "exist and rule in the universe are personality and randomness". What kind of bull crap is that? How can you possibly bring randomness into how I deal my everyday life? I understand personality (but an individual's personality is only brought on by factors in their life- their parents, upbringing, freinds, etc, and most importantly choice) but I simply cannot accept that my life is driven by randomness. I am non-religious and barely philosophical, so there is no way I'm believing that every action I take is driven by some higher being rolling a dice or flipping a coin.
And personality cannot drive every single thing.
Take, for example, an oak tree in summer. Being a plant, it has no personality. So, anything that happens to this tree, must, according to what you said, must be driven by randomness alone. Let's say there's no wind, and for some reason the tree sheds a single leaf. Going by your logic, personality and randomness are behind this menial act. But the tree has no mind, so it can't think "Hmm, I believe I shall shed I leaf now", so personality isn't behind it. So, randomless alonemust be responsible. Somehow, the laws of physics, nature and everything no longer apply, and the fate of the leaf is down only to a dice roll or a randomiser. That is what you are suggesting, right?
I think I'm not the only one who thinks that is just fucked up.

Let's say God does exist. Surely He didn't create mankind, the universe and everything in it, just for them to be toys in His game of inevitability and randomness? So, basically we have no free will and are just manipulated by a deity, who created us just so He could watch us live out our lives exactly as He planned, like robots? If this was so, why did He bother creating us? Was He just bored and wanted to watch us follow a set path through our brief lives, seeing our every move just as He planned? Is it just me, or is God starting to sound slightly perverse?
Besides, this basically means we have absolutely no purpose in life, no choice of our own, even our thoughts were decided on before we were even born. Well, that's made my existance seem pretty lowly and pointless.

To cut this shorter than I planned, that's why I believe in choice, rather than inevitability.
Makura
Posts: 732/1555
I completely agree with Zabuza.

Life just is. Deal with it.

I think instead of figuring out why or how we do the things we do, we should spend more time trying to control the stupidity in the actions we take on a daily basis. Just look at George Bush.
Astrophel
Posts: 739/2724
Originally posted by Vulkar
(A)I openly said that Randomness is not inevitable, and it is the only thing not inevitible. (B) I also never claimed to know everything,



A. Ah, but hadn't you said earlier that everything was inevitable? I do remember this.

B. I never claimed that you claimed to know everything. I merely claimed that you're acting like it. Attention to detail, Vulkar.
Rauni
Posts: 660/1339
Originally posted by Vulkar
And no, we can't control other things, we can't control ourselves, as what we do around us, and our core personality is what controls us.

I'm sorry, but this is wrong. Our brain controls us. Not only the brains creates the personality and are effects by several factors (if you tired from a long day work, you got arrested for doing nothing illegal, or you won a lottery, which I highly doubt in that chance) but even so, we can "control" things that may altered the possible outcome in the future.

For example, in one of the episode "Numb3r" (I think Zabuza might like this show) explains that many people are not going to use same tactic the same time (once they are exposed to another move made by another person). What happened now is that Charlies (an mathematic person who work with his brother solving crime by using math.)

In one episode, Charlies was be able to predict the next attack made by using his fomula and when Matt (or whatever his name is) made his move, they were also ambushed as well. When thing gone wrong, Charlies gotten depressed. Choice? He control the problem and it was altered in the end. He also lost a brother. Inevitable? Probably.

But the main point was that he was trying to break the theory on the infinite possibility. Was it inevitable or his choice to do that? Either. It was inevitable that the outcome was bad, and Charlies trying to break the NPvP theory (I forgot what it was) was his choice. Even through in the end, Charlies gave up the inevitable event and that was his choice. He found a different method to take down the attack, making the decoy car and the actual transport. What's happened?

We all figures that having a fake transporter take a real route (longer to be it a secret) and a real transporter take a fake route. In the end, they kept it to the main plan all along, the real transporter would take the real route (direct route to the airport or something like that) while the fake transporter would be the acutal one to be attack.

Now, what you are not only saying here is that the factor lies within the outcome of the recent attack. Wrong, you may not CHANGE the environment, but you can ALTERED it. When Matt got surrounded by the bandit, he was be able to altered the outcome in his favor by simple sticking to his main plan all along (having a sniper in a specific area in where they are most likely to be attacked, having to delievers fake money, etc.) .

Again, NPvP is inevitable but can be done by choices as well. The outcome is unpredictable (in most cases) where the continual loops may occur over in repeating pattern. Time Machines also show that the main character was be able to go back in time to save his girlfriend from dieing. When he did, she STILL kept on dieing, regardless when he teleport back in time. Same fate, different choices...

It was 100% inevitable for him to save his girlfriend.

Personality-wise, unless you are talking about Criminal-Mastermind show, again, they applies themselves to "become" the criminal. They do it every point of view, testing the personality they are mostly likely to have, and so forth. Did they do this because of their choices? Probably, but we don't know that because we don't control them. They would know themselves more easily because they control themselves.

Originally posted by Vulkar
Every action has a reason, nothing happens for no reason, and if something happens, its because the mind does it only because they agree with it on some level.


Again, NPvP Theory said that no matter which choices may happened, outcome are inevitable. Doesn't matter if you do nothing or something. If you want do nothing when someone handed you some money because you are a cashier, guess what? You are going to have a angry customer because you didn't do anything. Higher chance of getting fired while I add that too.

And if hurricanes was formed, does they mean we agreed that it was us who make it, even through it is highly weather-related? Hell, I see people who are like: "NO!!! I DON'T WANT TO DIE!" I don't think those people's mind agrees with the hurricane's "mind" at some point.

I think you just need to explain more because seeing how any possibility doesn't effect choices, it just altered the outcome factor. Unless fate decided to be cruel. Which can happened in some point of our life.
Ϡ
Posts: 732/3807
Originally posted by Vulkar
Okay, I've explained it many times, now I'll try again.

There are only two things that exist and rule in this universe. Personality, and randomness. Every single thing that happens, is only a result of something else hacing happened. The mind will, repeat, most definitly will reply in a certain way based on factors. The mind will only be able to reply in one way, there is only one way it can react. Other factors being added will alter the minds response, or giving enough time, a different response will be added, once the mind has time for all of the factors to become visible. Every action has a reason, nothing happens for no reason, and if something happens, its because the mind does it only because they agree with it on some level.

It is impossible to master this, as you will always respond according to other factors. If you chose to try and master it, you will do so only because of your knowledge of it, and only because of other factors, which influence it.

And no, we can't control other things, we can't control ourselves, as what we do around us, and our core personality is what controls us. We will only control our finances, family friends, ect, based on other factors. other factors are what controls us.


Then why did you ask this question? Of course the mind's thought is based off previous actions, but it still a complete choice. Neither answer is correct because your question is flawed. Even if supposedly all choices are inevitable, choices are still choices. We ourselves are based off our enviroment, and other factors control us, but we are still human beings that still make these choices. Whether or not they are inevitable does not stop complete choice.

And by saying this, you are probably ticking off anyone loyal to their religon. In most religons, a God is the one making these decisions. Philosophy and religon are intertwined, so don't try to say it has nothing to do with it.
geeogree
Posts: 129/246
vulkar: you obviously don't understand the religion we belong to.


it doesn't matter if God knows what choice we make. According to what we believe he knows everything that has and will happen. Does that mean we don't choose? No. We make every choice that is presented before us. But that doesn't prevent him from being able to know what we are going to choose and what will result from it.

He has the capacity to understand the impact of a choice for 1000's of years. Let's say two people get married. They can have kids or not. They can have 3 or 5. God knows the impact of every child forever.

How could God say we have the freedom to choose if the choice has already been made? It goes against what you and I believe.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 786/4539
Okay, I've explained it many times, now I'll try again.

There are only two things that exist and rule in this universe. Personality, and randomness. Every single thing that happens, is only a result of something else hacing happened. The mind will, repeat, most definitly will reply in a certain way based on factors. The mind will only be able to reply in one way, there is only one way it can react. Other factors being added will alter the minds response, or giving enough time, a different response will be added, once the mind has time for all of the factors to become visible. Every action has a reason, nothing happens for no reason, and if something happens, its because the mind does it only because they agree with it on some level.

It is impossible to master this, as you will always respond according to other factors. If you chose to try and master it, you will do so only because of your knowledge of it, and only because of other factors, which influence it.

And no, we can't control other things, we can't control ourselves, as what we do around us, and our core personality is what controls us. We will only control our finances, family friends, ect, based on other factors. other factors are what controls us.
Stitch
Posts: 822/2778
Now, your theory doesn't make sense. You've contradicted yourself again relating that everything we do in life is based on a matter of chance as related to individual responses to a variety of environment and physiological stimuli? How is that preordained, non-voluntary reaction? How is that an inevitable decision?

Statistics is a sub-division of mathematics, or the science of probabilities, which would tie into your theory if I understand it correctly--which I don't. You're not clear. Start over. I want to understand what I'm arguing about.

Give us an explanation. Answer my questions, if you can.

My side:

The world around us, as we know it, is created every single portion of every single day (or any length of the concept that we perceive as time) by every single man, woman, child, and animal on this planet. Our planet is what it is because every organism on this earth makes it so. This has no implication on what we choose to do during our days, but it establishes why the planet exists as it does.

Our decisions, in a whole effort to create our own personal existences, are fueled by the power of quantum physics and the inner strengths of our brains. If we are not able to physically alter the world to our choosing, we can at least alter the few items that we have influence over such as finances, family, friends, clothing, food, sex, whatever else you can control.

However, if one truly masters the ability to manipulate their surroundings, then choices made whenever in that time span will influence the outcome of whatever time span of their choosing. It's quantum dynamic theory, which also happens to be taught at UCLA.

Your turn.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 785/4539
Tamarin, I know you're a mod, and I'm supposed to be respectful toward you and everything, but you are being ridicuolous. I openly said that Randomness is not inevitable, and it is the only thing not inevitible. I also never claimed to know everything, and never have claimed to know why you are how you are. I would have to know every single tiny detail about your life, your parents life, and many other things. Enough things to take a lifetime to know, and then I still wouldn't be able to, as I do not possess overwhelming intelligence.

Now please, unless you are going to be serious, pay attention to what I say, and not make things up, please stop discussing this. I already know you don't care, so why are you posting here?
Astrophel
Posts: 738/2724
The OTHER question. About why it's a part of my personality. You seem to think you know all the answers... so answer that.

Act like you have all the answers, and you'll be faced with all the questions.

Oh, and randomness directly contradicts inevitability - because if everything was inevitable, nothing could possibly be random, the outcome would already be predetermined by the aforementioned inevitability. Thought I'd point that out for you.

Various Edits: Adding things here and there, removing things here and there, correcting wording...
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 784/4539
Zabuza, I must say that you are a heated debater, and unfortunatley one who still does not understnad what I'm saying, despite the huge amount of times I've said it.

I am saying that every single decision you make, you must make. You personality will reacte according to how it is effect according to what has happened to you, what state your mind is in, what you have been thinking about, and what you know will happen. I am saying that your mind really will happen, and that basically this world is ruled by chance, the only thing not effected by other factors.

Seriously, I don't get how you all keep misunderstanding. Every choice that you make different from someone else, even if everything was exactly the same, could theoritically be possible according to my theory.

Oh, and statistics have nothing to do with this. You will react differently from other people because of your inviroment and your personality, that is all.

Oh, and if you want to bring math into this, someone could calculate how everything is, and find out exactly what people will do, how they will react, ect. Or at least, he could if there was not randomness. They calculate that according to everything they do, 2+2=4. The must do it according to the math.

EDIT for Tamarin: I answered, I said that everytrhing is inivitable, which I believe was related to your question. I said there is no why, as nothing could not be inevitable, except for randomness.
Astrophel
Posts: 737/2724
Originally posted by Vulkar

Tamarin: There is a reason for everything, yes. I strongly believe that, as everything that happens happens because of influence from either their personality, or another factor.



Quit dancing around my other question and answer it. If everything's so obvious to you, it should be easy.
Stitch
Posts: 815/2778
Okay, skipping over all your arguments...

You've contradicted yourself, Vulkar. There are choices. I go through them every minute of everyday. I have obligations and I have wants. I decide based on necessity what I'm going to do at that moment.

At the bookstore, in the back of my mind sits the bills that must be paid since I need to keep the things they're tied to. There are books and other things I want. I know I'm going to overdraft myself, but I didn't. Why? Because I don't need that book, and I do need the telephone. I do need my cell phone (I live in LA, I need my phone). I need my internet (for work purposes as well). I need a car that works. That car needs gas. I also need food. So, bills or books?

Since you're so sure that I'll pick the obvious, I'll let you tell me what I did that day.

Anyway, as an adult, I go through myriad decisions everyday (most dealing with money) and I don't always make the decision you'd think I'm preordained to make. I overdraw my bank account every now and then because I cave to something I want, or because I pay something I need. I drive for a few days on low fuel. I put off oil changes. I don't wash the car for weeks. I drive in inclement weather conditions, including to school.

I skip work for other things that are important (or trivial) to me. You can't tell me that it was actively destined for me to get into a minor fender bender at work because everyone else was getting into them that week. Or, that as a result of that, the building put in a STOP sign and a Right Turn Only sign. Or, that my parking one spot over from where I usually do prevented my car from being broken into that day. That my choosing to work outside that one day was going to seal my fate as a Federal agent.

I love the rain. I can control my vehicle in the rain. I chose not to leave that morning because I don't trust other drivers in the rain. I still would have gone to class regardless (for I don't want to be on academic probation), but I have the flexibility of going whenever I choose during the week.

I make choices on the fly. And, yes, my mind does randomly change at every millisecond of every day. You don't know my mind...only I know my mind. My car is clean. I should shower, I'm probably not going to, but I'll jump in a few minutes before I have to leave for work. I can make the drive in forty-five minutes, but will probably either be a few minutes early, right on time, or a few minutes close to being late.

I know! You learned a new word, and decided to use it to death, right? "Inevitable". How about:
assured, binding, cold, compulsory, decided, decreed, destined, determined, doomed, fated, fateful, fixed, for certain, foreordained, imminent, impending, ineluctable, ineludible, inescapable, inexorable, inflexible, irresistible, irrevocable, necessary, obligatory, on ice, ordained, pat, prescribed, settled, sure, unalterable, unavoidable, undeniable, unpreventable, without recourse?

Just saying. Anyway, you're walking the line of statistics there, and turning into a theory of contradictory instances to suit your period of confusion. It's good. It's a start, but it's not a sound start. Just work on it. You should be able to prove something. Or not. Doesn't really matter.

According to statistics, there is always the possibility that I will be involved in at least three car accidents during my lifetime. I've been in two so far. Statistically, there is someone being mugged right now. There is someone buying a condom somewhere. Someone is having an orgasm. Someone has died. Someone has been born. A car has broken down. A dollar has been lost. Somewhere on this planet there is a car accident. Somewhere on this planet, someone is thinking the exact same thought I'm thinking.

Mathematically, anything is possible. Scientifically, anything is probable. Theoretically, everything is available to be molded to one's belief systems. Your turn.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 783/4539
Cairoi: No, that's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that you make a choice according to other factors, whether you are conscious of them or not.

Tamarin: There is a reason for everything, yes. I strongly believe that, as everything that happens happens because of influence from either their personality, or another factor.

Geeogree: This arguement that I am going to display will only work with you, as you are of the same religion as me(I think). No one else need argue with this, unless they want to take into account religion.

We believe that God knows everything, correct? If so, then how could he see past a choice that the person is not made, unless he knows exactly how that choice will be influenced? Unless that person was definitly going to make that choice, he would not be able to make a choice.

Oh, and you believe you chose, but it was inevitable that you would chose.
geeogree
Posts: 128/246
Vulkar: so you're saying that because I thought it I didn't choose?

that's fucked up
Astrophel
Posts: 736/2724
Hahahaha, I expected as much.

#1: That's not the complete reason, and you know this. It's part of my personality, fine. But why is that?

#2: See #1

#3: Actually, if I was looking to flame you, I'd do so in a much more blatant, loud, half a page long manner. =/ The main reason I think you're full of it is pretty simple, really. If everything is inevitable, you could come up with more complete and conclusive reasoning for ALL of this. Not just choice, either; if choice is nonexistent, why would anything else not be inevitable?
Ϡ
Posts: 730/3807
So you're saying that the reason we make a choice is what we've done before...Duh. But we're still making the choice. Whether or not it is inevitable does not stop it from being a choice. An obvious choice, an absolute choice is still a choice.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 782/4539
You named the factor, you believed something good might come out of it, and I'm sure that if I knew you more, you would do it.

Is there a single desicion anyone really makes for no reason at all? I can think of none.
Ϡ
Posts: 728/3807
Vulkar, example: I walked home from school today in the rain. I knew it was going to rain and my every thought told me to get a ride but instead I walked. I chose to for absolutely no reason, just because I thought some good might come of it.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus
Posts: 781/4539
#1 Because that's part of your personality, and that's not a choice, at least to my knowledge.

#2 Again, part of your personality

#3 I could say this is part of the personality too, but it is really because you are looking for a way to flame me, which I thought isn't allowed if you're a mod. Also, its because you don't like my idea, or even the fact that I like discussing philosphy.

Any real examples?
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Inivitabilty, or choice?



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