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10-20-18 06:27 PM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - So, I know you all like Obama, but can you seriously take this? | | Thread closed
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Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

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Last activity: 24 days
Posted on 10-09-08 12:50 PM Link


Just to make my views clear, I believe that abortion is wrong in all cases except for those of rape, incest, or where the mother is at risk of death. If two people decide to have sex, and the mother has abortion simply because she doesn't want it...then it's wrong, especially when she can give it to adoption agencies.

But that's not the real part of the debate. Partial birth abortion, or leaving a child to die when it's already born. Do you disagree with either? Obama supports both.


(Last edited by Vulkar on 10-09-08 12:51 PM)
Belial

Bazu








Since: 01-29-05
From: New Zealand

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Posted on 10-09-08 01:24 PM Link
I really don't think abortion should be illegal. It's none of our business what a woman feels is right in a given situation. What kind of life would a child have, if the mother didn't want it? That'd be way crappy. Don't rely on the "system" to take care of children, there are not enough families who can appreciate a child. That, and the population is large enough.

As for the partial born, then left to die because it can't sustain itself.... well, that's wrong. There's a time frame in which a fetus should be aborted. Past that time, sorry chica, you waited too long, your choice was made for you, you're going to give birth to a live baby.
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

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Last activity: 2248 days
Posted on 10-09-08 02:54 PM Link
I'm no fan of partial birth abortion, but I'd rather vote for a president who supports abortion then a president who wants to say no to all abortions.

I never understood the Republican mindset: Make a big fit about babies before they're born, but afterwards, they don't even matter. They want to intervene and make abortion completely illegal, but they won't support the babies brought into this world with universal health insurance, meaning there are many children in America facing the threat of a miserable, shortened life. To care more about fetuses than people is beyond me.
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 6 days
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Posted on 10-09-08 03:01 PM Link
I'm against partial birth abortions, but like Cairoi said I would rather vote for a president that is for all abortion than against it. You do have to keep in mind that just because his personal view is that he is okay with it does not mean that it will become legal just because he is elected. However there is lots of attempts to overturn Roe v. Wade and I will feel better knowing that those attempts will not have the support of the White House, since.. ya know... the president appoints the judges of the Supreme Court.

Also, point of note to you Vulkar. Republicans are against abortion even in the cases you listed, as declared at the convention. They want it banned completely.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 298 days
Last activity: 24 days
Posted on 10-09-08 03:11 PM Link
Cairoi, people can live to be quite old without healthcare, as long as they take care of themselves. For instance, my great gandmother lived to be almost ninety, and other than the last few years of her life, almost never had doctors.

There are people that need it though, I admit it, and I think that McCain's plan of giving money for people to provide themselves with health care is a smarter idea than forcing them into a government run health program, because let's face it, the government sucks at giving to the individual.

I have a lot more, but I don't want to debate health care, this is about abortion. Is it right? Is it justifiable to kill a child once it's concieved, or even more, once it's alive and kicking?

I would debate the main idea of abortion, as that is a very personal debate...debating it will either offend or annoy people, but it definitely won't persuade them.

But partial birth abortion? That my friends, is nothing more than infanticide.

EDIT: Didn't see your post Elara. :-P

Addressing your points, if they think taht it should be completely outlawed, I won't approve, but no matter how hard they try, they won't ever succeed. They'll never look at a mother about to die and say, "sorry, game over."

Thus, the republican's view on abortion is far, far, far less dangerous than the view on infanticide.

And yeah, I'm disagreeing with some republicans. That's because I make my own views, and definitely have my own views which both republicans and democrats hate on other issues, such as gay rights. I'm not concerned with that.


(Last edited by Vulkar on 10-09-08 03:16 PM)
Cteno

Super Shotgun
Moderator








Since: 01-11-05

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Posted on 10-09-08 03:24 PM Link
Who cares what the laws say? If the law won't let them abort legally, they'll just down alcohol/drugs/a metal coat hanger to do it themselves.

Yes, I believe that partial birth abortion is barbaric, but what needs to be done is education. Yes, most women who choose to get abortions don't even think about adoption. Just wait a few more of your pathetic months, give up the baby to adoption, get your tubes tied and never let it happen again.

If you don't want a baby that badly, don't have sex in the first place. Simple science, but most people can't live with their own mistakes, it seems.

I'm pro choice but also, even more strongly, pro education.
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

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Posted on 10-10-08 03:01 PM Link
Originally posted by Vulkar in the subject line
So, I know you all like Obama, but can you seriously take this?

Never said I liked him. Actually I'm between voting for Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader.

Like I've said in previous posts, living in California, my singular popular vote counts for nothing as my state is already locked in for Obama (which is a shame because being locked in right away means the candidates will focus less time on us and put all their concentration in the swing-voters of Florida, Ohio, and Pennsylvania--looks like this year's swing states are West Virginia, Missouri, Indiana, and North Carolina).

Obama, while I do consider him a better candidate than McCain, is a sacrificial lamb who spouts of change and hope but is gaining much of his support from those who want to get a bad taste of the GOP out of their mouths. People are concerned about the war and McCain changes what he says about our situation there every time he gets up to the lectern. The scariest thing he's said, though is that the U.S. should maintain a 100-year presence in Iraq. Who wants that?


Getting off topic here, so here's my thoughts on this "partial-birth abortion" topic.

I gotta go with Ralph Nader's statement on this: "I don't think government has the proper role in forcing a woman to have a child or forcing a woman not to have a child... This is something that should be privately decided with the family, woman, all the other private factors of it, but we should work toward preventing the necessity of abortion."

Now here's what Obama put down for his beliefs on abortion, as can be found here:

For his stance on abortion on a political awareness test, he checked "Other" and wrote in: "Abortions should be legally available in accordance with Roe v. Wade."

Now to take this a step back.

Amendment 14, Section 1, of the U.S. Constitution states:
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

And this was how "Jane Roe" (a pseudonym for Norma McCorvey) won her case that was held on her behalf by her attorneys against the state of Texas, represented by Wade.

This is also why I find California's Prop 4 (parental consent for abortion for girls under 18 years of age) to be absolute bullshit. It's impeding on a right that was deemed available for all women by the Supreme Court. It's an attempt to chip away at the right a woman has to CHOOSE.

And that's the funny thing about wording. Pro-life is NOT the opposite of pro-choice. That would imply that pro-choice advocates are for aborting ALL fetuses (feti?). Pro-life is a delightful little euphemism for the more truthful and harsher-sounding anti-choice.

Most conservatives, as Sarah Palin has voiced, do not support abortion in any sense--be it in cases of rape, incest, etc. I'm sure many of them are even opposed to a woman evacuating a fetus if it's killing her. Was it the girl's choice to be raped? No. So she should have to carry a fetus to term even if it kills her?

Let's continue on this wording tangent -- partial-birth abortion.

The American Medical Association does not recognize "partial-birth abortion" as a genuine medical term. The actual wording for it is intact dilation and extraction. "Partial-birth abortion" is another spin on the term to make it sound like the fetus was born through labor and pushing on the mother's part and then stabbed in the back of the head with a medical instrument just for shits and giggles.

And who's going to back that? Might as well argue if clubbing baby seals is heartless or not. Please think of the seals.

Intact D&X has only been used in less than 1% of abortions (around 0.2% for a closer approximation).

Here's something the video doesn't flat out address: Jill Stanek worked in a rather religious hospital, Advocate Christ Hospital. What were they doing performing a second-trimester abortion? Abortion isn't exactly something you could roll up to your nearest devoutly Catholic/Protestant medical group, ask for, and get willy-nilly.

There HAD to be an issue with the mother(s).

The video doesn't specify how many of these so-called abortions Stanek witnessed or "discovered," but when she went to the media regarding it, she was fired for slander. Stanek now has a job as a columnist for World Net Daily, a publication that has frequently fallen under scrutiny for libelous statements they're printed.

Incidentally, the rate of aborting a "pro-life" girl's unwanted fetus is HIGHER than those of pro-choicers. Why? Let's say a good Christian girl goes to a party, has a few drinks, and makes a bad decision which lands her at urinating on a stick and getting that "Surprise! You're pregnant!" lump-in-her-stomach sort of feeling. She could deal with it publicly and have everyone over the 9 months know what she did (judging her every time she goes to church, school, work, etc). OR.. she could deal with it privately and put the whole situation behind her.

Guess what she's more likely to choose.

Most pro-choicers do not fall back on abortion as a form of contraception, despite what the GOP and religious folks would have you believe. They simply want the option to be there should they find themselves in such a bind.

Here's some light reading on the topic: "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion": When the Anti-Choice Choose.


Now with all that said, what does this have to do with Obama? Obama did not perform the procedure. He did not pull the fetuses (feti?) from the mothers. He didn't leave them in a room alone to die.

Obama opposed a bill that was invading the private medical lives of women who sought the procedure for varying reasons. He was standing up for the rights of women everywhere and trying to keep anti-abortion rights advocates out there from chipping away at a woman's right to choose.

What's being stacked against him? The strategic wording of bills, buzzwords, and hot button issues backed by the logical fallacies of appealing to emotion and tradition and poisoning-the-well red herrings (either you're against abortion entirely or you're a baby-eating nazi) with a healthy dose of "Tu quoque" in there for good measure.
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 1605 days
Last activity: 1501 days
Posted on 10-10-08 03:17 PM Link
That video's lack of evidence is disturbing.

Seriously, some proof that Obama opposed anything, or supports anything... something besides some woman just saying that it is?
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 298 days
Last activity: 24 days
Posted on 10-10-08 03:28 PM Link
Okay Rogue, I'm not going to adresss your main points on whether or not abortion is right, because like I said, it's a personal thing, and all it has ever done when I debated it is turn personal. However...

Originally posted by Rogue
Here's something the video doesn't flat out address: Jill Stanek worked in a rather religious hospital, Advocate Christ Hospital. What were they doing performing a second-trimester abortion? Abortion isn't exactly something you could roll up to your nearest devoutly Catholic/Protestant medical group, ask for, and get willy-nilly.

There HAD to be an issue with the mother(s).


Alright, granted, there could very well have been an issue with the mothers. I'm going to assume that the issue that you were talking about may have been that of a medical risk if the baby is being born, which is the only reason I can think of for a christian hospital to do that.

But, when the baby is already out, when it's sitting there in front of her, struggling to breath, while the hospital has the medical ability to save the child's life...why kill it? That's horrible! You're letting a living creature, fully capable of living a normal human life, die alone in a vault. Even if it's going to have down syndrome, it's still alive, conscious, has a unique personality, and is a HUMAN BEING.

The mother doesn't ahve to give birth to it anymore, she doesn't have to raise it, and she's DEFINITELY no longer at risk from it. So why? Why can we let it die?

And Rogue, his official stance may just be, "allow women to have abortions," but his voting record goes to show that he approves of killing living children after they're born(though definitely early) as well.

And yeah, there are plenty of ad-hominem and red herring attacks against Obama, but he voted for allowing partial birth abortion. There is absolutely no denying that.

Also...


Obama opposed a bill that was invading the private medical lives of women who sought the procedure for varying reasons. He was standing up for the rights of women everywhere and trying to keep anti-abortion rights advocates out there from chipping away at a woman's right to choose.


Yeah, it's in there private lives. But did you know that if a mother kills her children when they're five years old, it's her person business then too? She could have sought it for varying reasons, and stopping her is chipping away at her rights to choose whether or not to raise the child.

But that's completely wrong, right? That's freaking illegal, as is leaving a child at home for months because he can't sustain himself.

So what's the difference between doing that, and leaving the child to die when he's a lot younger? Yeah, he might be unwanted, but so are the five year old children that the mother can kill by leaving them in the car for several hours.
Elara

Divine Mamkute
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Chaos Imp
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Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

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Posted on 10-16-08 02:47 PM Link
The issue was brought up in last nights debates, in which Obama clarified his voting "present" on the law in question. The law was to ban LATE TERM abortions (not just "partial birth") in all cases. His reason stated was that he did not support it because it had no clause allowing the late term abortion in cases where the mother's health was in danger. Otherwise he would be in favor of such a bill.

What you are doing Vulkar is twisting the facts. As Rogue stated, the thing that you are talking about is very rare, not the norm and you even stated that you feel that if the mother's life is in danger that abortion should be an option. Obama voted to uphold that, so why are you calling him down on it? Because a biased video told you otherwise? Always, always double check your sources before you believe anything that you are told, especially with online videos and even more so on stuff dealing with presidential candidates. If I had a nickle for every bullshit video I have heard of or seen regarding Obama and McCain I would be rich.
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 2624 days
Last activity: 2248 days
Posted on 10-16-08 05:39 PM Link
Originally posted by Elara
The issue was brought up in last nights debates, in which Obama clarified his voting "present" on the law in question. The law was to ban LATE TERM abortions (not just "partial birth") in all cases. His reason stated was that he did not support it because it had no clause allowing the late term abortion in cases where the mother's health was in danger. Otherwise he would be in favor of such a bill.

What you are doing Vulkar is twisting the facts. As Rogue stated, the thing that you are talking about is very rare, not the norm and you even stated that you feel that if the mother's life is in danger that abortion should be an option. Obama voted to uphold that, so why are you calling him down on it? Because a biased video told you otherwise? Always, always double check your sources before you believe anything that you are told, especially with online videos and even more so on stuff dealing with presidential candidates. If I had a nickle for every bullshit video I have heard of or seen regarding Obama and McCain I would be rich.


Quoted for goddamn truth. Can't say much more than that at this point in time.
Ryan

Ptooie
Is back!









Since: 10-01-04
From: Stafford, UK

Since last post: 2420 days
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Posted on 01-16-09 05:25 AM Link
Originally posted by Elara
Obama voted to uphold that, so why are you calling him down on it? Because a biased video told you otherwise? Always, always double check your sources before you believe anything that you are told, especially with online videos and even more so on stuff dealing with presidential candidates.


Oh, we all know he's Mormon, just humour him.

My opinion is up until a certain point, the child is not yet living, at least not to a standard of human life, and therefore can be aborted without guilt. After that, except for severe life threatening circumstances, abortions are wrong.

Also, Vulkar, to keep a child alive with a high risk of them developing with any number of mental diseases to me is wrong, mainly because it's incredibly difficult for such people to achieve a quality of life the average person might get. It also puts a lot of effort onto those who don't have such illness, having to tolerate their behaviour, the government and charities putting money towards helping these people when the money can be put to much better use elsewhere...

If a partial birth is going to take place, in my opinion it would be better just to finish the job, instead of trying to raise the now likely underdeveloped child in a life of probable suffering.
Shuyin

Baron of Radical








Since: 08-19-04

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Posted on 01-26-09 04:56 AM Link
So...debate over with. Yeah?

I'm sure Vukar understands Obama's position now.


(Last edited by Shuyin on 01-26-09 04:56 AM)
Elara

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Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 6 days
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Posted on 02-08-09 02:32 PM Link
Yeah, I think you could safely say that.
Sólrök
Newcomer








Since: 08-12-09
From: Mimimei∂r

Since last post: 3354 days
Last activity: 3351 days
Posted on 08-14-09 02:55 PM Link
N-n-n-necro bump!

Originally posted by "Valhalla"
Yes, most women who choose to get abortions don't even think about adoption. Just wait a few more of your pathetic months, give up the baby to adoption, get your tubes tied and never let it happen again.

If you don't want a baby that badly, don't have sex in the first place. Simple science, but most people can't live with their own mistakes, it seems.


I realize you said this a few months ago, but I felt I should comment. Many people do not understand the gravity and extreme hardship that follows in the wake of an adoption. As with any system, there are people that abuse it, but something of this sort is unacceptable to be abused. The amount of children placed in foster care is ridiculous, and the women that do abuse the system, both adoption and releasing their children to the government, is sickening. I have personally met a woman with six different children in the system, and only one has been successfully adopted. Beside the fact that it is proven that those in the Foster Care system are significantly more troubled than other children, it is an unimaginable way to be raised from the comfort of our own homes.

Despite these things, and despite raising a child in a horrible setting that will forever traumatize them, many times to the point of abuse, for those women who are actually loving and responsible people, those who give up their children to adoption, I do not believe anyone can understand their pain and anguish of having to give up a child; not because they don't want to take responsibility, but because they know they are unable to care for the child due to their fiscal situation, mental maturity, and/or lack of familial support. And I find it both insulting and naive for anyone to say such words as "pathetic", when said people, and their children, will live with the ramifications of that choice for the rest of their lives, both on an emotionally distraught level of some degree. While the people that judge, do so from a throne far away and very high above.

Furthermore, to promptly tell someone to "get their tubes tied", when it is major surgery, which does pose a great risk to their life, is harrowing. Sometimes there are mistakes, yes, and sometimes people are wholly responsible for it, but that leaves no room for apathy and a confrontational attitude from people who have not experienced it, possibly one of the most difficult experiences a woman can face in her life. Just because some abuse it, does not mean it should be regarded so abrupt, and because it is abused, foster care and adoption must be taken vastly more seriously, especially by those who support pro-life.

Fix the system, or shut the fuck up (This is a general statement and in no way directed at you, just to clarify.). It is a much less atrocious crime to destroy a cluster of unintelligible cells, than to bring a human into this world, unprepared and in the cross-hairs of impoverished society. Call it murder, call it what you will, but murdering a child's future and potential is significantly worse. That's my point of view, anyway.


(Last edited by Sólrök on 08-14-09 02:56 PM)
Cteno

Super Shotgun
Moderator








Since: 01-11-05

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Posted on 08-14-09 04:26 PM Link
When I wrote that, I was more thinking of people who get abortions 2 or 3 months before the baby is born, it's fully developed and in some cases can survive outside of the womb if born naturally as a preemy. I still say the woman has the final decision and that right shouldn't be taken away from her but some women don't even consider their options before they make a hasty decision that they may regret for a long time.

Lets not forget the people who get abortions merely for the reason that they don't want kids, whether or not they have a suitable lifestyle or are financially secure. Like a box in a random factory in Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines said, "Improper use may result in 18 years of responsibility."

As far as tubal ligation is concerned, it's a quick and mostly never causes harm and can be done during childbirth. For those that choose to not abort but don't want it to happen again then this is a perfect choice. Another incentive is that it can be reversed at a 65% pregnancy rate, so if they want children in the future it's not completely out of the question.
Sólrök
Newcomer








Since: 08-12-09
From: Mimimei∂r

Since last post: 3354 days
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Posted on 08-14-09 05:48 PM Link
Late abortions don't usually happen too often. In fact, there's a law against late abortions in the US unless the Mother's health is in threat. I believe the cut-off is the beginning of the second tri-mester, or in time-terms, the 5th month. Anything beyond that is illegal, and if done, done behind prying eyes. But if I read your post wrong, I apologize; you had prefaced it with "most women", which altered the subject.
Cteno

Super Shotgun
Moderator








Since: 01-11-05

Since last post: 34 days
Last activity: 9 days
Posted on 08-14-09 06:00 PM Link
No need to apologize, this is the Debate Shrine, after all!
Kaijin Surohm
I'll save you all time:
My opinion is completely diffrent from yours.
Thus, you should hate me and not get to know me.
I just saved you 3 days worth of arguements.








Since: 08-16-04

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Posted on 08-20-09 03:49 AM Link
For some odd reason, I feel I must make a comment in here. Probably due to the fact I've spent some time considering the options at hand, and what exactly is at stake when this subject comes around.

This is easily one of the most touchy subjects to date when it comes to extreme situations and decisions. Everyone can agree on atleast that much.

However, I have my own set of beliefs and morals when it comes to this:

I've heard so many people talk "Only in rape/incest/etc situations" and "Only if it were so young" or "It should never happen" and whatnot. Everyone is inclinded to their decision, but one thing I've come to a conclusion on: The only reason why most people get so irritated at this subject, is because their subconcious is not fully content with your decision.

I may damn well be crossing the line with that statement, but it's one I felt around for. I've listened to one line that I had to agree with, but I never truly accepted: "Only in rape/incest/etc conditions"

If someone wishes to dictate that it's OK to kill a fetus, regardless of the time process, is it truly ok? Extremist call it murder, others call it humane. There is honestly only two reasons why I would truly agree to the concept of abortion some that many people seem to completely ignor due to their massive arguements over the same situation

Depending on the Health, and Mental state of the Child, being crippled, or mentally crippled in extreme cases, or if the Mother's life is on the line (I read the second one once in this whole thread)

I have searched myself for this one for a very long time. After a while, I no longer could agree with "Only in Rape" or other such events. Due to the things I've encounered, and the situations of my own, sure, rape is a terrifying experiance, but what if, just what if, that one child was given to you for a reason? Not a mental slap to the face, but rather a gift to not just you, but a figure that could help the world in some strong way?

I'm sorry to thoes who feel otherwise, but I truly cannot put a punishment on a child, for what the father has done. And that's how I see it, a punishment, if the child is healthy, and the mother will live through it just fine. I've learn to see the potential in new life, regardless of if I even want to or not.

Regardless of my words, I do apologize for the extremities I may have seemed to given out, but these are my true feelings on the matter. Unless it's fatal, or extremely crippled, I see no reason for abortion period.
Leviathan

Magician








Since: 07-20-05
From: The 217th layer of hell. Quite temperate actually.

Since last post: 3315 days
Last activity: 3226 days
Posted on 09-07-09 08:20 PM Link
Have you folks seen what passes for parenting these days?

Now, I'm all for killing babies regardless of the circumstances (and just for reference, there's still a black-market demand for fetuses in certain parts of China. Apparently, they're good eats)...but more often than not, abortion is a kindness.

My logic for this opinion? People are idiots. Idiots tend to produce and raise more idiots.

Every time i walk into a McDonald's and watch that kid with downs syndrome (they all have them) shuffling along picking up trays in some twisted homage to corky, a part of me dies.

Every time i watch a paraplegic's head flop to the side because the obese mother pushing his wheelchair banked a hard left, i can do nothing but sigh.

Every time i hear a white kid with a giant gold chain and pants hanging around his ankles say "Yo, G" i hold back tears.

Every one of these cases and a hundred more gets the "Hoover seal of Approval".

Abortion has it's place even outside of the "Rape/welfare of the mother" argument, kids.

I may be going to hell, but i still raise a damned good point.
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