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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Gay Marriage | |
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Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 03-26-13 10:13 PM Link | Quote
It's been under a lot of discussion today. People are changing their Facebook photos, people are picketing, and the Supreme Court is going to listen to a whole bunch of arguments.

Well... what do you think?
Lord Alexandor

Tendoru








Since: 10-15-06
From: Phoenix, Arizona

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 4 hours
Posted on 03-27-13 09:52 AM Link | Quote
In my eyes, we could get over this stupid debate by changing the word "marriage" to "civil union" and give everyone the same damn rights. This way "marriage" (which is a religious term) can still be between people and the church (traditional or not, whaterver, I don't really care). If you are legally "married" today, that just changes names to be a "civil union."

I don't particularly agree with homosexuality, but I'm not going to let my opinion get in the way of their rights. This is America, and religion is supposed to stay out of government and therefore laws.

/rant

PS: I'm getting sick of the number of posts about it on Facebook.
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 1 hour
Posted on 03-27-13 01:14 PM Link | Quote
Marriage is not a religious term, actually. It is associated with religion because of the many cultures that had religion as part of the government (Rome, Medieval Europe, etc). I think Katana mentioned on Facebook that the Catholic church draws a distinction between Marriage and Matrimony... maybe that is what you are thinking of?

Regardless, I think my opinions on the subject are widely known. I just hope the Supreme Court can see past all the bigotry and do the right thing.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 179 days
Last activity: 32 days
Posted on 03-27-13 03:01 PM Link | Quote
I think that just about everyone knows my viewpoint on this as well, as a religious person, I cannot agree with homosexuality. Now, I don't get into all of the gay hate that a lot of people get into, I have friends who are gay, one of whom is my roommate. But then, that doesn't mean that I agree with what he does.

On the issue at hand, I really think that the federal government shouldn't necessarily be the one to decide this case, rather, I think taht this is another case where it should be left to the states. Proposition 8 was voted and approved by the people of California, and I feel that if the people in a state have voted and come to a decision, then nine people in the supreme court should not have the right to overturn that.
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 567 days
Last activity: 150 days
Posted on 03-27-13 09:50 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Lord Alexandor
I don't particularly agree with homosexuality, but I'm not going to let my opinion get in the way of their rights. This is America, and religion is supposed to stay out of government and therefore laws.



BAM. You too Vulkar. Whether you two and I agree/disagree on this topic, or any topic for the matter, the fact that you two know how to keep bigotry, for lack of a better way to phrase, out of your opinions makes me a very happy camper.

See, here's the thing. I'm not against homosexuality. And I wouldn't want someone walking up to me, treating me like dirt and telling me they can and will take my right to feel the way that I feel/think the way that I think just because they don't agree. So, I don't do that to others. I like when I see people who can hold onto their beliefs without hurting others.

With that said...yeah, the "Marriage" and "Matrimony" thing, like Elara said. Only thing is, I point that out very tentatively, simply because religion is a GINORMOUS dome, so to speak, and I'm only recalling a viewpoint from one small corner of the whole idea of religion and the beliefs that come with it. I don't think what I was taught about the two terms is enough to squish the idea that gay rights would be "imposing" upon religious beliefs.

But I also bring us back to the First Amendment. It is very clearly stated that you're free to your beliefs, but Congress isn't allowed to care about your beliefs when it comes to making laws. So, when people say our other amendment rights are being assaulted...they seem to forget about that little tidbit....So, needless to say, I'm VERY interested in the discussions about this topic that DOESN'T involve religious beliefs. Your opinion is your opinion, but if you don't want my liberal leanings to take your guns away, then your conservative leanings best not break the "religion isn't allowed to be factored into lawmaking" mentality. (Unlike ranting on facebook, I appreciate the fact that I can be sarcastic without you guys taking me seriously, but still getting the point being made.)

So seriously, can someone please indulge me and talk about why this is an issue, without including religion?

(PS, Elara, I loved your "Devil's Advocate" on facebook. I'll have to re-read it, but they made a point that's actually notable, beneath the trolling. Lol)
Cteno

Super Shotgun
Moderator








Since: 01-11-05

Since last post: 79 days
Last activity: 22 days
Posted on 03-27-13 10:37 PM Link | Quote
My only issue with homosexuality is that if my future kids turn out to be gay, I'll only be upset because I want grandbabies.
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 567 days
Last activity: 150 days
Posted on 03-27-13 10:43 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cteno
My only issue with homosexuality is that if my future kids turn out to be gay, I'll only be upset because I want grandbabies.


My mom has said the SAME thing to me years ago. And then recently she said to me "If this country pulled its head out of its ass and were better about gays adopting, then I wouldn't have to be sad about having a gay child."

Although, maybe for the sake of population control, it would have been better if at least some of my sisters were gay. :p
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 03-27-13 11:01 PM Link | Quote
Just going to post a few quotes:


"The bottom line is that all of this is academic. Gay marriage is going to happen. Whether it happens now at the Supreme Court or somehow later, it is going to happen. It's just the direction the culture is heading."



"All that matters regarding gay marriage is that love is involved here, and love trumps everything. Love conquers all. And when there's love involved, nobody has a right to say no to it. Nobody has a right to say anything about it. Because there's not enough love as it is in the world, and who are we to stand in the way of decent, productive love?"



"Most of the people I know don't care about gay marriage. They're so scared about what's happening in the economy that this social stuff, they think, is a distraction. They're just worried that there isn't going to be an economy for their grandkids to even have an opportunity to succeed in."


Who said all these things? Answer
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 1 hour
Posted on 03-27-13 11:41 PM Link | Quote
Bill O'Reilly said something similar... it's creepy when even the right wing pundits are saying to just let it happen.
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 03-27-13 11:46 PM Link | Quote
The liberals I'm seeing responding to their comments are saying they're only switching sides on the issue because they figure they're going to lose, but like a wounded animal will lash out elsewhere. I don't know.
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 567 days
Last activity: 150 days
Posted on 03-28-13 01:00 AM Link | Quote
I think its a mixture. I think there really are right wingers that are only supporting this because they'll keep losing if they don't. But I also believe that there are some who truly don't mind it and are now unafraid to speak up. And then there's the ones who have changed their minds because its a realistic part of their own personal lives now...and those people...I don't exactly disrespect them, or feel like 'You're only saying that NOW because your child is gay." <---at least I don't feel that last part in any bitter sort of way. We're all entitled to have something give us that kick in the pants.
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 1 hour
Posted on 03-28-13 10:10 AM Link | Quote
More power to them for supporting their kids, I say.

And once more, I want to point out that while Prop 8 was voted in by a small majority of the population, people in the South fifty years ago voted that interracial marriage was illegal... and that was struck down because it violated the United States Constitution. States cannot pass laws that violate Federal law, and when they do they get struck down.

Also, on a side note... since I've seen people trying to use "marriage is for the procreation of the species" argument to try and not sound like Bible-thumpers. There are a few things wrong with this:

1) People are capable of procreating outside of marriage. Marriage exists to establish legitimacy of offspring for inheritance rights (a legal thing).

2) Only religions say that you need to be married to have kids.

3) That would logically mean that all infertile citizens and people past child-bearing age are also barred from getting married, and no one in their right mind would pass that law. Seriously... pure logic:

A: Marriage is only for having children
B: Person 1 is unable to have children (infertile)
Therefore, Person 1 is not allowed to get married.


Who agrees with that? No one! The argument is illogical and therefore invalid.
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 1 day
Last activity: 1 day
Posted on 03-28-13 12:54 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Elara
Also, on a side note... since I've seen people trying to use "marriage is for the procreation of the species" argument to try and not sound like Bible-thumpers. There are a few things wrong with this:

1) People are capable of procreating outside of marriage. Marriage exists to establish legitimacy of offspring for inheritance rights (a legal thing).

2) Only religions say that you need to be married to have kids.

3) That would logically mean that all infertile citizens and people past child-bearing age are also barred from getting married, and no one in their right mind would pass that law. Seriously... pure logic:

A: Marriage is only for having children
B: Person 1 is unable to have children (infertile)
Therefore, Person 1 is not allowed to get married.


Who agrees with that? No one! The argument is illogical and therefore invalid.


Almost 5 years ago, when Prop 8 was just about to be voted on, I wrote out my own list against the procreation argument.
Xeoman

Wallmaster
Administrator








Since: 08-14-04
From: 255

Since last post: 6 days
Last activity: 6 days
Posted on 03-28-13 09:58 PM Link | Quote
Yeah, just let it happen.

Not to casually step on any cracks here like this isn't substantial itself, but yes, this country has much bigger fucking things to worry about than dictating what people can rightfully love.

I know what I like, if others know too then that's awesome. Be happy!

In the end though, there will always be prejudice however. Taking a firm step in allowing this across the country will be awesome, but yeah. Just like there's still and will always be racial tension and sexism across the globe, it's probably another issue mankind will never truly overcome. To free these current and pointless shackles so we can carry on with greater concerns though will be a nice big step.


(Last edited by X on 03-28-13 10:00 PM)
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 136 days
Last activity: 65 days
Posted on 03-28-13 11:14 PM Link | Quote
If religious institutions want to "preserve the sanctity of marriage", then there should be absolutely no benefits to it. That means no tax benefits, no other special legal consideration, no insurance benefits, etc. That way, there are no possible considerations beyond those mandated by the religion in question.

It's funny how the sanctity argument is only used against things that aren't a direct (typically financial) benefit to religious institutions. The nature of humanity, I suppose.
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 1486 days
Last activity: 1382 days
Posted on 04-12-13 03:54 PM Link | Quote
This is why gay marriage needs to be legal, forget all that stuff about morality and procreation:

http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2013/04/12/1857741/what-actually-happened-to-that-same-sex-couple-in-the-missouri-hospital/

EDIT: By the way, surveys have shown that a majority of Californians regret Prop 8 being passed. Not to mention that it violates the first damn paragraph of the Constitution.


(Last edited by FX on 04-12-13 03:57 PM)
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 567 days
Last activity: 150 days
Posted on 04-12-13 10:33 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by FX
Not to mention that it violates the first damn paragraph of the Constitution.


Thank you!!!! I'm not the only one who freaking SAYS that!!!!

Edit: I mean, even that article...this WHOLE thing shouldn't even BE an issue, because...you know...first amendment states that congress isn't allowed to care that religion is a reason for law....like...that point right there. You're the best. I have faith in humanity now.



(Last edited by Katana on 04-12-13 10:36 PM)
天国JOE

俺、どうになるのじゃろう?








Since: 09-02-04
From: Destroy Tower

Since last post: 1682 days
Last activity: 1047 days
Posted on 04-13-13 05:35 AM Link | Quote
You guys still haven't allowed gay marriage across the board yet? Jeez laWEEZ
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 1 hour
Last activity: 1 hour
Posted on 04-13-13 09:11 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by 天国JOE
You guys still haven't allowed gay marriage across the board yet? Jeez laWEEZ


Sickening, isn't it?
FX

Zombie Marco








Since: 03-24-06

Since last post: 1486 days
Last activity: 1382 days
Posted on 04-14-13 07:55 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Katana
Originally posted by FX
Not to mention that it violates the first damn paragraph of the Constitution.


Thank you!!!! I'm not the only one who freaking SAYS that!!!!

Edit: I mean, even that article...this WHOLE thing shouldn't even BE an issue, because...you know...first amendment states that congress isn't allowed to care that religion is a reason for law....like...that point right there. You're the best. I have faith in humanity now.




I actually wasn't referring to the first amendment since, by their nature, amendments can be changed. I actually meant the second paragraph of the Declaration of Independence, even though I said first of the Constitution. Hey, I can't always be right.

Originally posted by Declaration of Independence
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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