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09-22-18 09:49 AM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Pledge of Allegiance: Should it be removed from classrooms? | |
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Stitch

Mr. Bright
Dr. Thread Killa, to you.
Look, I'm an ass sometimes. Get over it.








Since: 08-20-04
From: Manhattan, NYC, ASA, Terran

Since last post: 1771 days
Last activity: 1768 days
Posted on 09-14-05 11:02 PM Link | Quote
I always wondered growing up why we had to recite the pledge every single fucking day. Do we lose our allegiance to the union overnight? I stopped reciting it on cue shortly after fifth grade...once I changed a few words. Not standing granted us immediate detention, so I was still forced to stand at the very least. I also had to mouth the words every now and then.

In college, I never had to stand and recite the pledge. So...do we lose our allegiance overnight? I'm all for the pledge being taken away from schools. They've removed Christmas songs, and some other idiotic things that I felt were cool (like the music program), so why not the dying pledge?

I did change a few key words along the way:
"I pledge allegiance to the fag of the United States of Americorp, and to the disgrace for which it broadcasts, a dissolutioned nation, under a broken Ozone layer, for limited freedom, and just rice for all."

We had an assignment in high school to do the above, and that was what I had submitted. That was an oddly structured sentence. Damn it all to hell, I'm going to watch a movie and sleep.

Mwah!! It's just another thing in the morning that takes away from learning, and if we're trying to push for a diversified nation, why must we stick to the old and continue to force upon the Pledge? I mean, do we really need to pledge every single day except for weekends?
Evo

Red Super Koopa
Watching you fall brings joy to my heart....








Since: 08-16-04
From: Oregon

Since last post: 3856 days
Last activity: 3796 days
Posted on 09-15-05 03:43 AM Link | Quote
I don't think it should be removed. I'm not Christian, or any religion, and I am one of those that think religion shouldn't be forced, or put on in schools, howeverit's like a national tradition.

I do think, if you don't want to say it, you shouldn't be made to. Like you, I too stopped reciting the Pledge in about 4th grade. Just because I didn't like saying it... I don't really feel it should be removed.

*shrugs*
Stitch

Mr. Bright
Dr. Thread Killa, to you.
Look, I'm an ass sometimes. Get over it.








Since: 08-20-04
From: Manhattan, NYC, ASA, Terran

Since last post: 1771 days
Last activity: 1768 days
Posted on 09-15-05 03:59 AM Link | Quote
How did this turn into a rant on religion? Does that always just work its way into debates? Why must religion always be brought up? Because "God" is mentioned in the Pledge? Is that it?

Please. Just because things are traditional in school doesn't mean that we should all be forced to recite a hundreds-year-old allegiance to a nation that can barely hold its own in any aspects of anything. We are supposed to be the land of the free, but we're not even free to decide whether or not we'd like to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

I mean, does our allegiance lead astray overnight? Must it be pledged every single day? It became routine in school to stand around third period (high school) and recite the Pledge along with the principal over the loudspeakers. I went through the motions of standing. Never hand over the heart. Never actually reciting it, while I did sometimes mouth it when one of our five vice-principals was around. But, I lost all sense of allegiance to the nation.

I'm still American. I just don't believe in infusing our youth with a sense that the government actually cares about their well-being. When, in fact, they obviously don't. And only care about lining their pockets with our hard-earned cash.

What just happened?...All around me are familiar faces...And I find it kind of funny, find it kind of sad, that the dreams in which I'm dying are the best I've ever had...
Evo

Red Super Koopa
Watching you fall brings joy to my heart....








Since: 08-16-04
From: Oregon

Since last post: 3856 days
Last activity: 3796 days
Posted on 09-15-05 04:16 AM Link | Quote
I wasn't ranting on religion, however can if you'd like... :/ I was mentioning religion because that was the reason ~I~ stopped saying the pledge.

I agree with you on that aspect. In my school, I wasn't forced to recite it.

I thought that question about allegiance was rehtorical, hence why is wasn't answered/debated. Of course not. Cush things are usually lost over time.

Good point though. Maybe the Pledge could be stated every Monday/first school day of every week. *shrugs* I do feel it pointless to try to get it to change because it's mostly not going to. I don't think that's what you were getting at, but *shrugs* Anyway, another good idea would be doing it at the end of the day where you could stay if you wanted to, or leave for teh bus/whatever.

I do remember regretting having to say the Pledge EVERY FREAKING DAY in elementary school.

Oddly enough, the pledge was never (or hardly ever) said (with the exception of on 9/11) in Junior High or High School.
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 2922 days
Last activity: 1071 days
Posted on 09-15-05 10:46 AM Link | Quote
I can't believe people actually complain about this.

How long does it take to recite? a minute or 2? are you all that self-centered that you can't take 2 minutes for your country instead of yourself?

I don't really care if it doesn't mean anything to you anymore. It's part of being an american.

Oh, and... America can't hold it's own? Where have you been for the last 50 years, or 100 years? Well, not born for most of them. That's not the point . The point is, America has been the most powerful nation on the planet for the last 100 years.
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 227 days
Last activity: 66 days
Posted on 09-15-05 01:21 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by geeogree
I can't believe people actually complain about this.

How long does it take to recite? a minute or 2? are you all that self-centered that you can't take 2 minutes for your country instead of yourself?


In what fucking way does it benefit the country to waste one or two otherwise productive minutes reciting a meaningless pledge?

Please tell me. PLEASE prove that you aren't just another one of those brainwashed full-of-shit "patriots". And I'm sorry, but being Canadian won't pull you out of it this time, because what you just said was too damn typical of those "patriots".
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 2922 days
Last activity: 1071 days
Posted on 09-15-05 03:56 PM Link | Quote
your whole post was laced with assumptions about the pledge that aren't universally true.... therefore your point, to me, is moot...
Stitch

Mr. Bright
Dr. Thread Killa, to you.
Look, I'm an ass sometimes. Get over it.








Since: 08-20-04
From: Manhattan, NYC, ASA, Terran

Since last post: 1771 days
Last activity: 1768 days
Posted on 09-15-05 04:30 PM Link | Quote
Ah, and after being challenged to provide some kind of proof, he backs off. How quaint.

I mean, let's review my third period back in high school.

Bell rings, we settle in--takes about 5 minutes.
P.A. comes on--Pledge takes about 2 minutes.

Seven minutes wasted. We could have been doing something else during that point. The pledge is no longer recited during the college years, workplaces, or anywhere else...why prolong it through school if you're never going to use it again?

It'd be better to replace the pledge with singing the national anthem. At least that is used during sporting events, and forgetting those words could be embarrassing.

I'd have to agree with the brainwashing though. America has been dwindling in the past two decades. We can't base a nation's power on how well they performed in the last half or full century. We've losing the value of our dollar to the Euro, Yen, and other currency. Anything made in the USA still has a negative connotation to it. We're behind in technological advances to China and Japan. Our economy suffers because consumers prefer imports rather than our own products (myself included). And other countries don't really prefer our exports to their own manufacturers. The American vehicle doesn't exist anymore (I don't count assembled here). The hey days of the 50s are gone. No longer are we the presence we thought we were. Immigrants now dream of becoming a Canadian rather than American, the dream is no longer here.

If I had the money to do so, I'd move to Japan. But, that's all entirely beside the point.

Groups want to remove the pledge from public schools because of the religious reference to "God". While it could mean any belief system that uses a deity named "God", it more than likely refers to the early Quaker/Christian people and their "God". I do think that public education should be a diversified environment exposing youth to the various possibilities of everything in the world, and maybe eradicating the one "under God" phrase is a small thing, but for those who don't believe...you know...it might help.

I had friends growing up in school that didn't recite the pledge for religious reasons. I envied them. But, being that I chose to be agnostic and not because my family was, I was one of the many FORCED to recite the pledge. What kind of free, powerful America is that? A country that forces idiologies on people because it feels it's correct? Democracy doesn't even work in our country. What's the point of a multi-party system if we only end up with one party or the other?

Again, deviating. Sorry, it just happens.
True Flight

The One








Since: 08-21-04

Since last post: 649 days
Last activity: 634 days
Posted on 09-15-05 05:11 PM Link | Quote
Well... It's not wasted time for me. I'm in JROTC during that time and it's really neat on how we do everything. We stand at ease during the moment of silence, then we all simutaneously stand at attention and put our hands to our hearts, or just stand at attention (ONLY if we're in uniform). It takes a lot of discipline to ignore the yawning that goes on in the mornings.

Anyway, after that we say our seige.

LOYALTY
DUTY
RESPECT
SELFLESS SERVICE
HONOR
INTEGRITY
PERSONAL COURAGE

BE IT
KNOW IT
DO IT
HOO-AH

XD The hoo-ah gets to me. But JROTC has shown me that this country is a lot more... I dunno, but it appeals to me now. It takes a lot of honor to say the pledge with meaning and stuff, and for some odd reason when the words roll from your mouth in a certain way people can really think that you have a lot of discipline and stuff..

Psst... Plus it means 7 minutes less PT for me on Fridays =P


(Last edited by True Flight on 09-15-05 08:12 PM)
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 269 days
Last activity: 4 days
Posted on 09-15-05 05:42 PM Link | Quote
Honestly, I can see both sides of this idea. I believe that if you are supposed to, then do it. It disrespects your country not to.

However, the actual pledging shouldn't be done after the pledge is memorized. If that part is canceled then you can spend a huge 2 minutes doing more school. But then if we calculate that 2 minutes for 303 days, then that is actually about 10 hours students could be studying. People can learn a lot in 10 hours.

So, while it does show your support to the goverment, it also does get annoying and waste time.

I would say it, but I wouldn't have a huge outburst were it deleted.
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 2922 days
Last activity: 1071 days
Posted on 09-16-05 12:17 AM Link | Quote
Zabuza: well, the parts I didn't like were: "otherwise productive", "meaningless pledge", "brainwashed full-of-shit patriots".

that's why I didn't feel I owed him an answer
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 227 days
Last activity: 66 days
Posted on 09-16-05 01:55 AM Link | Quote
I think it's more accurate to say you didn't feel like you owed me an answer because I disagreed with you, but I'll elaborate on my points. I at least have the decency to not ignore my opponent in a debate because I disagree with his wording.

"Otherwise productive": I find that it's more productive to spend those few minutes getting work and learning done than repeating some pledge over and over again. I mean, hey, maybe I'm the only one that would rather spend those 5-10 hours a year doing something, but I honestly doubt it.

"Meaningless pledge": Perhaps a slight exaggeration, but... well, no, not really, because to me it is meaningless. And I don't see where my opinion would affect whether or not you should reply - unless, of course, you either didn't agree with me and didfn't want to bother, or felt that replying was 'beneath you' in some way.

"brainwashed full-of-shit patriots": Slight exaggeration in my wording, but I'm sure you know the people I'm referring to. The ones who didn't give a damn about the country before it became trendy.


As for the pledge, aside from my practical reasons for wanting it removed, the "under God" part is actually an important part of it. How would a Christian feel if it said "One Nation That Knows God Doesn't Exist"? I'm not saying that it's possible to know either way, but what if it SAID that? You'd be pissed, right? I thought so, so those of us complaining about its present wording aren't really that far "out there".

I would ideally rather see it gone completely, though; the words don't even MEAN anything to little children unless someone explains them (more otherwise-prodcutive time spent on this pledge) and at that young age they still respond to the coercion, therefore droning out words that they don't understand. Later on, the classes need to cram more stuff in because of those damn SOL tests (rant for another topic), and that 10 hours each year could go to something else.
Stitch

Mr. Bright
Dr. Thread Killa, to you.
Look, I'm an ass sometimes. Get over it.








Since: 08-20-04
From: Manhattan, NYC, ASA, Terran

Since last post: 1771 days
Last activity: 1768 days
Posted on 09-16-05 05:26 AM Link | Quote
Valid points. There are many things that draw away from education, and it does become moot to teach kids something that they are probably not ever going to begin to comprehend until late high school, maybe early junior high, or possibly even college/university. When it is added up, that is ten hours of non-productivity that could be better allocated. I mean, our education is sub-par to all other countries (with exception to third-world and other lacking countries) churning out people whom believe that the entire world is high school (even though it is).

We need a better diversified learning environment. While it is all "well and good" to teach our children a little loyalty and pride for their country, they should be learning a little more from our educational system so that they can back that pride with something substantial.

I would like my kids to be multilingual, highly intelligent, undaunted by science and math, well-nurtured, independent, unbrainwashed self-thinkers. Thus far, we've only produced--maybe--2 to 5% of our total student population nationwide.

This country likes to brainwash. And, they like to start young.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

Since last post: 3515 days
Last activity: 3515 days
Posted on 09-16-05 04:24 PM Link | Quote
...and here comes me

to answer zabuza's comments about why we dont say it anymore in college... well, that's an easy ass answer! ONE: K-12 students tend to go to public schools, ie free... and ran by our government. TWO: college and up, are not public schools. you or someone pays for it. since you or someone pays for it, you are not forced to do anything.

regarding why "under GOD" should be removed:

ONE: K-12 students are still kids who attend a public school. this is what you call a "captive audience."

Definition
captive audience noun [C]
a group of people who listen to or watch someone or something because they can not leave.

This is also why your teachers arent "supposed" to tell you if they're a demo, or repub... or their opinions about a certain topic. keep in mind, i said supposed to.

so, to recap... kids in public schools who are told to recite it in a sense has no choice in the matter. certain schools/teachers dont care if you say it or not. but that's on a case by case situation depending on those ppl. in theory, you are supposed to say it. any "good" student will go along with it, since it's a rule, and they dont wanna get in trouble and whatnot. that is the full sense of a captive audience. this is the #1 reason it should be taken out.

TWO: "under God" gee... i wonder why it's God, and not god. so no, anyone's comments about it just saying god, which refers to any god, is WRONG! because it's a captial G, it automatically refers to the christian's God. So STFU, if anyone indeed use that arguement.

THREE: my personal experience. i'm not a christian or religious for that matter. but when i was a kid, i knew for sure i wasnt a christian, being asian and all that. so i'd always dread it when the under God part came around during the pledge. i always felt dirty or wrong when i said it. i thought it was just me, but now i'm sure there's millions out there who feels the same.


other stuff... the original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. [ * 'to' added in October, 1892. ]

"to my flag", which means that it's a pledge for your own state, not united states. it was changed later on. the original pledge was written some few decades after the civil war.


anyways, all in all... if you go to a private school, you should follow its rules and whatnot. but if you go to PUBLIC school, which i'm sure a lot of us did, you should not have to say under God, under the captive audience rule. and because it is seperation between church and state... being that public schools fall under the state, under God has no place there. i'd like to see someone counter my argument...
01001000
Slow Ride
Take It Easy









Since: 01-10-05

Since last post: 4274 days
Last activity: 3624 days
Posted on 09-16-05 04:31 PM Link | Quote
I haven't pledged allegiance to any flag since 6th or 7th grade. Got tired of saying it, didn't have faith in our government or even why I should I say it. All I do is stand, no hand over heart crap. I'm just gonna sit down for now on, see if my teachers during the second period are going to yell at me for not doing so.
Elara

Divine Mamkute
Dark Elf Goddess
Chaos Imp
Penguins Fan

Ms. Invisable








Since: 08-15-04
From: Ferelden

Since last post: 54 days
Last activity: 54 days
Posted on 09-17-05 03:45 PM Link | Quote
I don't remember when I quit saying the pledge, sometime around 7th grade I think. I notice that a lot of people stop saying it around that time, most likely because that is when we start the beginnings of thinking for ourselves... usually.

I wasn't forced to say the pledge, of course the one reason I gave when asked was "religious reasons". However, I was forced to stand for it. In 10th grade I had a teacher that gave us the option of not standing if we didn't want to. Two people stood for the pledge usually. I didn't want to stand for the pledge, because standing is a sign of respect and especially at that time I had no respect for this country because everything that the pledge, that the flag itself stands for, is a lie. We don't have the freedoms that we supposedly do. In 9th grade I had been horribly tormented for my religion and that left me very bitter, in 10th grade I watched my gay friends being harassed and denied their equal rights (that was the year the gay marriage proposition was on the California ballot and lost, thus banning gay marraige). Our first amendment right to freedom of religion is more like "freedom of religion, as long as it's Christian", and the "unalienable rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness" that Jefferson spoke of in the Declaration of Independance seem to be selectively given. If America was the nation that the founders had envisioned, then I would stand and say the pledge happily, but it's not. Thusly I didn't stand.

However, in 11th grade I had a different teacher for 3rd period (me and Zabuza went to the same high school, just so you know). He was a cool guy and all, but when I didn't stand for the pledge he got pissed off at me and sent me to the office. I was forced to sign a contract saying that I would stand for the pledge or I would be expelled. Apparently it is a law that you have to stand for it no matter what. My not standing was a form of civil disobediance, and that is a constitutional right that we supposedly have... but nope, not allowed to do it. I acutally lost the last bits of respect for the country then.
Van Rhanell

Missile Bot








Since: 08-15-04
From: Fraser, Michigan

Since last post: 4092 days
Last activity: 4095 days
Posted on 09-18-05 09:23 PM Link | Quote
It should stay, in its entirety, but people don't have to say it if they really don't want to. Most people I've seen against this are the younger groups who think they're making a change that would help them but really are just trying to find something else to rebel against. Standing should be kept, because this country is of free choice but not without law. It's not said at the high school I go to, and I wish it was because the pledge, no matter what it means, is more pleasing to listen to than the people around me talking of parties and sports and drug deals.
Pockets

Werewolf
pockets








Since: 10-20-04

Since last post: 2838 days
Last activity: 2354 days
Posted on 09-19-05 12:10 AM Link | Quote
I was in ROTC for 2 1/4 years. The class said the pledge every single day. I never once did. I stood out of common courtesy though I have no respect at all for it or this country.

This country is largely filled with ignorant biggots. I'm a biggot in some respects. Everyone is whether they think so or not. Some people take it to extremes that are just stupid.

I stopped reciting the pledge in kindergarten I haven't said it once since then.
Belial

Bazu








Since: 01-29-05
From: New Zealand

Since last post: 2112 days
Last activity: 1726 days
Posted on 09-19-05 02:03 AM Link | Quote
Well, I never said the pledge in high school unless the teacher noticed I didn't say it. I stood up, in respect for the original founders of the country, but not out of respect for the leaders of it now.

There were two reasons. One, I didn't believe in the god it implied to. Second, why does any one need to pledge their allegiance to a red, white, blue, striped and starred flag? a piece of material? It boggles my mind...
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 227 days
Last activity: 66 days
Posted on 09-21-05 01:17 AM Link | Quote
hah, you wouldn't believe how many times I heard most of your arguments, Vulkar.

The only exception being "Standing should be kept, because this country is of free choice but not without law." Honestly, I think this is the weakest argument I've heard in quite a while, even worse than "You don't have to say it" - of course, you also used that one, which I believe avatar already countered sufficiently.

Honestly, what does standing have to do with law? Hmm? And how would removing the request/requirement affect 'law'?
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Pledge of Allegiance: Should it be removed from classrooms? |



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