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12-14-18 02:28 AM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Did Jesus exist? Court to decide. | |
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Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 2 hours
Posted on 01-04-06 07:26 PM Link | Quote
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/04/italy.jesus.reut/index.html

If by chance the url goes bad, here's the story:

Did Jesus exist? Court to decide

An Italian court is tackling Jesus -- and whether the Roman Catholic Church may be breaking the law by teaching that he existed 2,000 years ago.

The case pits against each other two men in their 70s, who are from the same central Italian town and even went to the same seminary school in their teenage years.

The defendant, Enrico Righi, went on to become a priest writing for the parish newspaper. The plaintiff, Luigi Cascioli, became a vocal atheist who, after years of legal wrangling, is set to get his day in court later this month.

"I started this lawsuit because I wanted to deal the final blow against the Church, the bearer of obscurantism and regression," Cascioli told Reuters.

Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona," or impersonation.

"The Church constructed Christ upon the personality of John of Gamala," Cascioli claimed, referring to the 1st century Jew who fought against the Roman army.

A court in Viterbo will hear from Righi, who has yet to be indicted, at a January 27 preliminary hearing meant to determine whether the case has enough merit to go forward.

"In my book, 'The Fable of Christ,' I present proof Jesus did not exist as a historic figure. He must now refute this by showing proof of Christ's existence," Cascioli said.

Speaking to Reuters, Righi, 76, sounded frustrated by the case and baffled as to why Cascioli -- who, like him, came from the town of Bagnoregio -- singled him out in his crusade against the Church.

"We're both from Bagnoregio, both of us. We were in seminary together. Then he took a different path and we didn't see each other anymore," Righi said.

"Since I'm a priest, and I write in the parish newspaper, he is now suing me because I 'trick' the people."

Righi claims there is plenty of evidence to support the existence of Jesus, including historical texts.

He also claims that justice is on his side. The judge presiding over the hearing has tried, repeatedly, to dismiss the case -- prompting appeals from Cascioli.

"Cascioli says he didn't exist. And I said that he did," he said. "The judge will decide if Christ exists or not."

Even Cascioli admits that the odds are against him, especially in Roman Catholic Italy.

"It would take a miracle to win," he joked.



(Last edited by Rogue on 01-04-06 10:26 PM)
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 2678 days
Last activity: 2302 days
Posted on 01-04-06 07:30 PM Link | Quote
This is pathetic. I hate the Catholic church but this, this is just stupid. It wouldn't outlaw Christianity, first of all, at least in America, and unless we found his corpse there IS no case. What would he accomplish?

...I am dissapointed in modern man.
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 740 days
Last activity: 324 days
Posted on 01-04-06 08:45 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Cairoi
...I hate the Catholic church...



Um...I know what you really meant by that statement, but actually the "catholic church" is the people in it, not anything else. That's exactly why I usually hold my tongue in most things, either that or I make it perfectly clear that I'm not too savy on a particular subject but I'm jumping in so that I can learn something.

**glomps Cairoi** I just needed to point that out.

Anyway, I agree with you. I don't think Christianity can be outlawed, easily at least...just as I would think the same of Budhism, Islam, and so on.

And besides, I don't think it's right. I wouldn't think something like that was right if it was done to anyone. So long as religion isn't hurting people, let people believe what they want! Since there's no proof of deities and such, I firmly believe that religion is something that has to come from the heart anyway.
The Accidental Protege

Iggy Koopa
"I'm your accidental protege...
The gift, the blood, the thrownaway..."










Since: 03-08-05
From: Marching on the city of Southern Cross

Since last post: 2797 days
Last activity: 486 days
Posted on 01-04-06 08:57 PM Link | Quote
This is another reason why I hate humans.

I don't doubt that he existed. I don't doubt that he was executed for his teachings and beliefs. I just refuse to believe that he is the "Son of God" or whatever, and no amount of "praying for my soul" and telling me I'm going to hell is going to make that otherwise. Of course, I'm not going to start a federal fucking case out of it, that's just plain fucking stupid. I will however, voice my opinion if it is asked of me.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

Since last post: 3597 days
Last activity: 3597 days
Posted on 01-05-06 02:29 AM Link | Quote
on one hand, the pope lives in the country, but on the other hand... they did make a ruling which sparked denium day... =/
Makura









Since: 01-22-05
From: The restaurant at the end of the universe....

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 2982 days
Posted on 01-05-06 07:09 PM Link | Quote
The bottom line, is that this should have never been taken to court. Either you believe he existed or not. Why do you have to prove it to the whole world. It's a litle thing called faith and I don't think it's meant to be pushed upon others. My soul hurts.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

Since last post: 3597 days
Last activity: 3597 days
Posted on 01-05-06 09:00 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Makura
The bottom line, is that this should have never been taken to court. Either you believe he existed or not. Why do you have to prove it to the whole world. It's a litle thing called faith and I don't think it's meant to be pushed upon others. My soul hurts.


well the thing is, you should read the article.. it has merits of why it should be in court, according to italian laws and whatnot
Makura









Since: 01-22-05
From: The restaurant at the end of the universe....

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 2982 days
Posted on 01-06-06 03:02 AM Link | Quote
Ahem..I did read the article. What does Italian Law have to do with faith in Jesus Christ? What outcome could possibly come of this court case? I think you should re-think your whatnot.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

Since last post: 3597 days
Last activity: 3597 days
Posted on 01-06-06 05:46 PM Link | Quote
well... the case was about some guy suing a priest who writes for a parish newspaper. and...."Cascioli says Righi, and by extension the whole Church, broke two Italian laws. The first is "Abuso di Credulita Popolare" (Abuse of Popular Belief) meant to protect people against being swindled or conned. The second crime, he says, is "Sostituzione di Persona," or impersonation."

so yeah... how hard is this really... it's about those two laws. one guy is saying that the other is making money by conning people into believing in jesus. so now he has to prove that jesus exists in order for his money making to be legal. it's not really about faith, but more about the laws. i'm not making sense, am i?
Makura









Since: 01-22-05
From: The restaurant at the end of the universe....

Since last post: 3717 days
Last activity: 2982 days
Posted on 01-06-06 07:56 PM Link | Quote
I wasn't trying ot start and arguement, Avatar. You're right, he does have justification ofr taking it to court. My point was that it should not have been makde such a big deal. I mean, is that guy really going to make a difference by harping on someone else's religion. If you ask me, and i know that no one did, it just seem like this guy has no tolernace for any religion but his own.
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 3005 days
Last activity: 1154 days
Posted on 01-07-06 12:32 AM Link | Quote
uhm.... I didn't know this was still a debate. Jesus lived. And he died. There is evidence in historical writings (non-biblical "pagan" writings) that Jesus was a real person. Christian and non-Christian scholars both agree that a man named Jesus lived in the time period that the Bible says. They don't agree on what he did while he was alive (only the Bible and gnostic writings tell anything about his life) or all the circumstances surrounding his death, but there isn't much debate on whether he lived.

Seems like a pointless attempt at attacking the Catholic Church
Bitmap

#1 Enhancement Shaman US Ravenholdt








Since: 09-05-04
From: His Laughin' Place

Since last post: 2387 days
Last activity: 2380 days
Posted on 01-07-06 08:23 PM Link | Quote
Ok, as we all know by now. I am a Christian...so of course im going to have to say a few things...though I also understand alot of people on this board really wont care WHAT i say because of my relationship with Jesus...but after reading this...im sorry but im going to state a few things.

First of all, after reading the entire article, I now know that the entire court case is retarded as well as pointless. This country was founded by puritans, people who believed to worship Jesus Christ in their own way. Though they were later outlawed by their own country, they still believed that Jesus died for our sins on the cross ( From back then ) 1700 years ago.

Then people started blaming Christians for the simple right of freedom of Religion. Then you have all of these "False Prophits" and "Bible Pushers" walking around this world that give Christians a terriable name. As mentioned in my profile *Please read also* Christianaty should not be enforced into other people's lives, it is our job to open the door for people...as well as do the things Jesus did and spread his Word.

*Now for religious beliefs, im going to stop here, PM me if you wish to learn in a respectable way on my relationship....but for everyone's respect, im not saying anything unless you ask me...*

Thats just that...I find the whole case seriously stupid and offensive...but thats just life, theyre going to be people who are going to offend you...
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 740 days
Last activity: 324 days
Posted on 01-07-06 09:20 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Sajin Gorotto
...though I also understand alot of people on this board really wont care WHAT i say because of my relationship with Jesus...


Sajin I just need to point out that I find that generalization rather offensive. You made a point, supported it, and did it in a very respectful manner. That's all that matters. There just may be some who aren't willing to listen, but you're not talking to them, you're talking to those who listen, so no need to say something like that. Besides, it doesn't make your point as strong when you start off saying something like that. :p

Anyways, back on topic. I do see what you mean Sajin, Christianity should NOT be forced. NO religion should be. However, people seem to get so caught up in seeing how certain things are being forced to believe certain things...it's just as wrong forcing people NOT to believe something.
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 310 days
Last activity: 148 days
Posted on 01-07-06 09:59 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Sajin Gorotto
This country was founded by puritans, people who believed to worship Jesus Christ in their own way.


Except this is about Italy. Whoops?

Okay, raise your hand everyone that actually read the article.
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 2 hours
Posted on 01-07-06 11:34 PM Link | Quote
I think the bigger argument the plaintiff could address and possibly stand a better chance at winning would be suing for the priest conning people into believing Christ is the son of God, and not simply the existence of the man.

Then again, if you can prove and win in a fair argument that Christ did not exist at all, that takes down that whole mole hill completely.

Upon showing a friend the article, she made the remark, "I think I remember this story, don't they prove the existance of Jesus by having his mail delivered to the court house?"
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 740 days
Last activity: 324 days
Posted on 01-08-06 12:45 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Rogue
Upon showing a friend the article, she made the remark, "I think I remember this story, don't they prove the existance of Jesus by having his mail delivered to the court house?"


**blinks** Is there a follow up article on this? :p
Rogue
If you're reading this... You are the Resistance











Since: 08-17-04

Since last post: 7 days
Last activity: 2 hours
Posted on 01-08-06 03:18 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Katana
**blinks** Is there a follow up article on this? :p


Hehe. It's a a reference to Miracle on 34th Street.

They proved Chris Kringle was Santa Claus by showing that the US postal service acknowledged that he was Santa Claus by forwarding all the mail that was being sent to Santa, at the North Pole, to Chris Kringle at the court house. With the postal service, a government-run operation, acknowledging him as Santa, it was enough to prove that he was who he claimed to be.


(Last edited by Rogue on 01-09-06 05:44 PM)
Katana

Dark Wizard
\"She said tonight...come on come on collide...see what I fire feels like..I bet its just like heaven.\"








Since: 08-15-04
From: Philadelphia, P.A.

Since last post: 740 days
Last activity: 324 days
Posted on 01-09-06 06:41 AM Link | Quote
Oh... **blushes**

Teehee. Hey, that just might work though...
Bitmap

#1 Enhancement Shaman US Ravenholdt








Since: 09-05-04
From: His Laughin' Place

Since last post: 2387 days
Last activity: 2380 days
Posted on 01-09-06 12:55 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Tamarin Calanis
Originally posted by Sajin Gorotto
This country was founded by puritans, people who believed to worship Jesus Christ in their own way.


Except this is about Italy. Whoops?

Okay, raise your hand everyone that actually read the article.



Hmm, I wouldent post anything here if I diddnt...=.=

Originally posted by Katana
Sajin I just need to point out that I find that generalization rather offensive. You made a point, supported it, and did it in a very respectful manner. That's all that matters.


Meh, its just usually I read alot of things on here saying "Christians did this bad, and Christians did that bad" thing on here. I just dont actually think people would take me seriously because of my faith, thats all...but you made a good point. Im just scared to put something down on here without having SOMEONE on here ripping my head off about "What Christians have done" when I havent done anything...so why rip MY head off?

And Tamarin, I was making a general statement, a.k.a doing my history...whoops?

Hmph, I also heard alot about this during church, however I heard multiple accounts from the "Closed Minded" people who go there, saying they are taking Jesus from America and everything ( Which is literally impossiable). I had to keep the record straight within my relatives and everything...u.u;;; Bah, its just one thing or another nowadays...

Edit: There was a inside joke after the middle finger action...forgot to put a space
Edit2: Had to quote Katana
Edit3: had to get rid of the joke....might have been considered "Flaming" or something...


(Last edited by Sajin Gorotto on 01-09-06 04:11 PM)
Drizzt

Berserker
You put a bullet in my head, Till black turns to red! This could all end in tragedy!








Since: 08-20-04
From: Read "Real Name"

Since last post: 2374 days
Last activity: 2315 days
Posted on 01-09-06 11:53 PM Link | Quote
Well the thing is that even if they outlaw it there is no way they can stop it, sure they can say if you are caught doing whatever you will be arrested yada, yada, yada. But in truth there will be everyone still doing it because that's what they believe.
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