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10-15-18 07:35 AM
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Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Inivitabilty, or choice? | |
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Do you believe our actions are inevitable, or optional?(read post)
Our actions are inevitable
 
25.0%, 2 votes
We have complete choice
 
50.0%, 4 votes
I agree with neither.
 
25.0%, 2 votes
Multi-voting is disabled. 8 users have voted.

User Post
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-02-06 01:57 PM Link | Quote
Okay, so far then I have found an interesting theory on choice, one which I find may actually be true.

This theory believes that we are simply personalities inside our body, and every action we take is inevitible. That everything we do only happenes because of our experiences, the circumstances, and our knowledge, making it so that it is inevitable that what we do, will be done. So essentially, there is just us, and we have no choice. Choice is just an illusion, when it is in fact inevitable that what we do will be done.

The only other theory that I find to stand a chance is very different. Every time someone makes a choice, several new dimensions are created, each one mirroring what could have happened if we had a different choice. For example, there could be another dimension right now in which I chose not to write this post, or in which you choose not to read it.

So, which ideas do you agree with? If you vote, please post unless your opinion has alreayd been posted by another person.
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 250 days
Last activity: 89 days
Posted on 01-02-06 02:39 PM Link | Quote
I'm going with neither on this one. But not because of disagreeing with both, rather it's because I think that thinking about this sort of thing is a waste of time; even if we do find out the truth, what will that change? And because I think that thinking about the matter is such a waste, I've not really decided on my position - due to, of course, not thinking about it.

Don't take that as an attack on you for posting the thread, it's just my opinion on this subject.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-02-06 03:34 PM Link | Quote
Admittidly, there is nothing visible to gain and add to this world by thinking about it...unless...

If my second theory is right, then eventually traveling between those dimensions could be attempted, several thougsand years from now.

Also, its fun to think about, and I'd apprieciate less comments that are little more than saying that it is pointless to discuss philosophy, which is one of the few subjects that is, and always has been debated for thousands of years. I see it as enjoyable, and if you don't please don't post about it, as it does little to contribute.
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 2619 days
Last activity: 2242 days
Posted on 01-02-06 03:51 PM Link | Quote
This debate is based on the singular thing that keeps debates flowing: viewpoint. They are the same thing just worded complexly. If we have complete choice, then we are bound to make the choices we do.

Basically, I lean towards the choice thing because the other shows little to no respect to the ideas of instict, conciousness, self-awareness, and personality. But, in essence they are the same thing. Fate is the guiding hand of our actions, but there is no guiding actions other than ourselves, our surroundings, and our opinions. So, life is fate, and what is bound to happen will. But we do make those descisions.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-02-06 04:06 PM Link | Quote
But then, couldn't our personalities simply be created by what we have been through, or perhaps by what our bodies have been through?

Usually then peoples personalities change around ages 8-15. Males gain more of a sense of humor, and are less serious. Females on the other hand ususally go through a stage of being rebellious and disobedient towards their parents.

So, my theory could also be taking into account their body, which I believe is responsible for this change.

Of course, I did also take into account the personalities, by saying that is is just our core personalities, which acts according to the circumstances, so either one is possible.
Drizzt

Berserker
You put a bullet in my head, Till black turns to red! This could all end in tragedy!








Since: 08-20-04
From: Read "Real Name"

Since last post: 2314 days
Last activity: 2256 days
Posted on 01-02-06 04:11 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar

This theory believes that we are simply personalities inside our body, and every action we take is inevitible. That everything we do only happenes because of our experiences, the circumstances, and our knowledge, making it so that it is inevitable that what we do, will be done. So essentially, there is just us, and we have no choice. Choice is just an illusion, when it is in fact inevitable that what we do will be done.



I think that the first theory would be more believeable at the moment. I mean you never know what your going to do and you never know, everything we do might be inevitible. I think that this theory is more to the truth than having multiple dimensions and stuff.
avatar of law

Beezo








Since: 12-29-04
From: paris, canada

Since last post: 3538 days
Last activity: 3538 days
Posted on 01-02-06 10:16 PM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Vulkar

If my second theory is right, then eventually traveling between those dimensions could be attempted, several thougsand years from now.



i'm gonna have'ta go on a limb and say that it's actually not
your theory... as i've heard about this a million times, ie, sliders.

anyways, i'm gonna have'ta say the second one. the first one is plain stupid. if everything you do isn't a choice, and based on experience, then how do you account for everything that has happened during your entire childhood? you never had any experience after birth. plus, what about gambling? my giving the cashier a dollar for a random pick at lottery numbers and winning has nothing to do with being inevitible. it's chance that the machine gives me the right number, not because i'm destined to win.
Stitch

Mr. Bright
Dr. Thread Killa, to you.
Look, I'm an ass sometimes. Get over it.








Since: 08-20-04
From: Manhattan, NYC, ASA, Terran

Since last post: 1794 days
Last activity: 1791 days
Posted on 01-03-06 12:25 AM Link | Quote
I want to know how you can misspell the word "inevitable" in the title, but then spell it correctly in your post? And, I also want to know how a possession of obvious knowledge to use the word correctly somehow hinders your ability to create grammatically correct phrases?

That aside, it's a matter of choice. Take this morning. I could have gone to school. I could have sat through four hours of boredom and several minutes of driving in the rain, wind, and horrible weather. But, I chose to sleep in because of the horrible weather. By not going to school, I was allowed to be at home to survive through several hours of a power outage. By deciding that I didn't want to go to school, I was able to teach my cousin to play a song on the piano.

Drawing from the school of thought interrelated to quantum physics and other spiritualities and theories derived from that, I give you the premise behind the movies "What The BLEEP Do We Know?" and "The Waking Life". Under the guise of these two most excellent films, we are presented with the possibility of molding the entire existence of everything around us; creating the aspect that the world does not exist because it does, but because we create it around us all the time. And, because there are infinite possibilities, it is possible to create any existence we want if we try hard enough and believe in the abilities of quantum manipulation.

On the quantum level, nothing touches nothing. To quote the person (whose name I forget) that created another school of thought called the "Power of Intention", "we come from nowhere. Notice the spelling; 'N-O-W-H-E-R-E'. We live our lives in the 'now here'; same spelling. We end our lives returning to 'nowhere'." Should I decide that I want to live a better existence for myself, I can make it happen. It may not manifest itself instantly, but I believe that it will happen. Whenever that time comes.

Shit happens, get over it. It is, also, not your theory exclusive. It may your adaptation of several theories, but it is not exclusively your idea.


(Last edited by Zabuza on 01-03-06 03:26 AM)
Drizzt

Berserker
You put a bullet in my head, Till black turns to red! This could all end in tragedy!








Since: 08-20-04
From: Read "Real Name"

Since last post: 2314 days
Last activity: 2256 days
Posted on 01-03-06 12:37 AM Link | Quote
Originally posted by Zabuza
I want to know how you can misspell the word "inevitable" in the title, but then spell it correctly in your post? And, I also want to know how a possession of obvious knowledge to use the word correctly somehow hinders your ability to create grammatically correct phrases?

That aside, it's a matter of choice. Take this morning. I could have gone to school. I could have sat through four hours of boredom and several minutes of driving in the rain, wind, and horrible weather. But, I chose to sleep in because of the horrible weather. By not going to school, I was allowed to be at home to survive through several hours of a power outage. By deciding that I didn't want to go to school, I was able to teach my cousin to play a song on the piano.

Drawing from the school of thought interrelated to quantum physics and other spiritualities and theories derived from that, I give you the premise behind the movies "What The BLEEP Do We Know?" and "The Waking Life". Under the guise of these two most excellent films, we are presented with the possibility of molding the entire existence of everything around us; creating the aspect that the world does not exist because it does, but because we create it around us all the time. And, because there are infinite possibilities, it is possible to create any existence we want if we try hard enough and believe in the abilities of quantum manipulation.

On the quantum level, nothing touches nothing. To quote the person (whose name I forget) that created another school of thought called the "Power of Intention", "we come from nowhere. Notice the spelling; 'N-O-W-H-E-R-E'. We live our lives in the 'now here'; same spelling. We end our lives returning to 'nowhere'." Should I decide that I want to live a better existence for myself, I can make it happen. It may not manifest itself instantly, but I believe that it will happen. Whenever that time comes.

Shit happens, get over it. It is, also, not your theory exclusive. It may your adaptation of several theories, but it is not exclusively your idea.




Why does it seem like Zabuza could rule the world if he wanted to? >.>

But wow that's just cool, lol
Stitch

Mr. Bright
Dr. Thread Killa, to you.
Look, I'm an ass sometimes. Get over it.








Since: 08-20-04
From: Manhattan, NYC, ASA, Terran

Since last post: 1794 days
Last activity: 1791 days
Posted on 01-03-06 01:07 AM Link | Quote
I probably could rule the world, but that would require work and money. When I have enough money, I'll rule. But, you all won't know it until it's too late. The plan is still in the works, just need the money and manpower to execute it.

Till then, I'll be working at Jamdat as a game tester.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-03-06 07:03 AM Link | Quote
Yay, a disagreement, and my first chance to argue with Zabuza. Just so you know, as I haven't settled with either theory, I'll do a bit of devil advocate.

Now, you said it was your choice to not go to school. However, as you clearly mentioned, it was influenced by other factors, and it was inevitable that you would make that choice to stay home. Why? You mentioned several factors. It was inevitable that the weather and how bored you were with it would have an effect on it, making it so that you wouldn't go.

And yes, there are infinite things that could happen, but only a finite things will happen. Your mind believes that there is choice, when in actual fact, you will always make that choice, no matter what happens.

Seriously though, unless your mind and/or personality is always changing at random, then you must make a certain choice I think. If you decide to make your life better, it will because you don't like something in your life, and have no choice but to change it.

So, what I'm saying is that choice is an illusion. There is no choice, there is only us, and what we are going to do.

Finally, I never said that it was mine, and I made it up first, though th lack of choice I did make up, but a lot of people come up with that off of the top of their head.

Avatar: True randomness may easily not exist. Later today then I'll create another topic here, where we can discuss that.
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 2619 days
Last activity: 2242 days
Posted on 01-03-06 09:47 AM Link | Quote
Vulkar, choice is not an illusion. What happens is made by choice. What you're saying is the choice that happened is the only thing that happened, yes, because we chose it. The propable choice is still a choice and can get be forsaken. What happens does not just happen, we make it happen.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-03-06 11:32 AM Link | Quote
Okay, I get the feeling that you misunderstand me Cairoi.

Admittidly, we do it, we agree with doing it as it is done, and we believe it is the best thing to be done. But why? I am saying that no matter what, you will always make that smae choice, if the circumstances are exactly the same, and you do not know the results. You will never do something that you disagree with doing on some level, but your mind will always work in the same way, and when faced with certain circumstances, will always be the same.
geeogree

Ninji








Since: 10-19-04

Since last post: 2945 days
Last activity: 1094 days
Posted on 01-03-06 11:37 AM Link | Quote
I think Vulkar needs to take a psychology course.

there is always choice. Some choices are easier than others. And some choices don't make any sense. And some things after a while cease to be choices.

I chose to reply in this thread. I've also chosen several times not to. Were those actually choices or not? What changed that made me reply now and not before?

Am I choosing to reply now because condiations changed that made me want to post or was I destined at some time before now to post at this instant?

In my mind if I can even consider the possibility that I don't have a choice then I must have a choice because I'm considering whether I have one or not.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-03-06 01:29 PM Link | Quote
No, a simple thought entered to your head, that if you posted you would prove me wrong, and that thought influenced you, making it so that you decided to post.

I can find a motive for everything, try me.
Astrophel
Fear will kill your mind and steal your love as sure as anything;
Fear will rob you blind and make you numb to others suffering









Since: 10-03-04
From: Azul Lux Orbital, Kirin Beta

Since last post: 250 days
Last activity: 89 days
Posted on 01-03-06 01:48 PM Link | Quote
Why do I have such a short temper?

Why do I hate stupidity?

Why do I think you're full of shit?

Fire away.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-03-06 02:41 PM Link | Quote
#1 Because that's part of your personality, and that's not a choice, at least to my knowledge.

#2 Again, part of your personality

#3 I could say this is part of the personality too, but it is really because you are looking for a way to flame me, which I thought isn't allowed if you're a mod. Also, its because you don't like my idea, or even the fact that I like discussing philosphy.

Any real examples?
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 2619 days
Last activity: 2242 days
Posted on 01-03-06 02:48 PM Link | Quote
Vulkar, example: I walked home from school today in the rain. I knew it was going to rain and my every thought told me to get a ride but instead I walked. I chose to for absolutely no reason, just because I thought some good might come of it.
Lord Vulkas Mormonus

Vile
High Xeodent of Xeomerica.








Since: 10-29-04
From: North Carolina, United States. World, Sol System, milky way

Since last post: 292 days
Last activity: 18 days
Posted on 01-03-06 03:08 PM Link | Quote
You named the factor, you believed something good might come out of it, and I'm sure that if I knew you more, you would do it.

Is there a single desicion anyone really makes for no reason at all? I can think of none.
Ϡ
This isn't about you and your loud mouth,
This is about me and my fucking beard.








Since: 08-29-04
From: PA

Since last post: 2619 days
Last activity: 2242 days
Posted on 01-03-06 03:13 PM Link | Quote
So you're saying that the reason we make a choice is what we've done before...Duh. But we're still making the choice. Whether or not it is inevitable does not stop it from being a choice. An obvious choice, an absolute choice is still a choice.
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