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| Elara Posts: 4402/9736 |
Do you even know who reported you? Perhaps you could talk to him about it and tell him how you feel about all this, that way it will hopefully clear up misconceptions and prevent this from happening in the future in a different way. |
| Rauni Posts: 1314/1351 |
Originally posted by Elara More like, did Pockets ever reports it? As far as I am concerned, Pockets can say that he was too in violation of dress code. (Heck, my manager at Taco Bell caught one employee wearing a Ipod during work, and other employee think it was unfair for him to get an Ipod while working.) In addition, Pockets could have said that the person who reported it could have spoken to him directly, but then most employees would feel threatens by his nature of his religion, hence needing that cross to feel safe. If he would talk to Pockets, he would have probably threw a huge bitch fit and the employer would have fired him. I mean, look how Pockets reacted so nasty in the first post (no offense, man). You have to understand between two minds, not just one, Elara. If Pockets wanted to wear a pentagram but no one else can, how is it FAIR for other people NOT to wear it? It's like giving only one employee the power to bend the law and the other employees isn't aware of this. Originally posted by Makura And I agreed this time. Except on the bigger person since I don't know you in real life. But just keep in mind by all means that they could be worried about your religion's nature, thus impacts on your influence personality. |
| Makura Posts: 1299/1555 |
Well I think you're doing the right thing by letting it go. It really isn't worth losing your job and you are being the bigger person. If and when you do find another job I would explain how you feel and throw a major bitch fit. |
| Pockets Posts: 773/838 |
The thing that annoyed me is that it's not a store policy or a problem the company
has. It was a problem a single individual had that didn't have the balls to just ask me personally to not wear it cause they're bothered by it. I wouldn't have been nearly as annoyed if whoever it was had just come up and asked me themselves if I wouldn't mind. It the fact that they felt they had to involve the bosses in a way that if I didn't immediately comply I would most likely lose my job or be transfered to a store even further away from my house. (the one I'm at is a 20 mile drive one way every day.) |
| Bitmap Posts: 4262/7838 |
Originally posted by Elara Ignorance of his Religion? That could be a standpoint of what you can do. Tell him about your faith, the more he knows, the better off. Worth a try |
| Elara Posts: 4399/9736 |
... *sigh*
Okay. What about the other guy that works there that is allowed to openly display the cross around his neck? |
| Rauni Posts: 1313/1351 |
Originally posted by Elara  But what's wrong with being hypothtical?
I know it is too general, but let's try it this way. I would be discriminating your religion if it was something like this (by the way, I would NEVER acts like this) : "Hey, Elara, you know that wiccans is the source of all evils? I just found that out from 30 religions, putting it pieces by pieces together. Basically, you're going to hell so you'll go to heavens if you converts to being Christian." "Why would I, Seticus?" "Well, see here, Elara... Wiccans was dated back to ancient times where people studied black arts and every sort of curse. What happened then is that the Christian had to kill these Wiccans to purges their souls from evil. And that's what I'm trying to do, save your soul. So convert to our religion." "No, Seticus." "Listen, Elara... Your religion is evil and devoted to being an ass. Unlike my religion, your religion believes in the devil. Join my religion or you'll be sorry." That would be a good example of religion discrimination. However... Originally posted by Makura In this case, here is what my thought focusing on: Originally posted by Pockets What HE is saying that he can't wear it out in the open. However, it is NOT a religion discrimination because the symbol can't be revealed out in the open as part of the dress code system (remember, having it outside of the clothing is just the same as losing your ring in someone's food). He can wear it proudly, but it can't be seen by everyone. Else, Pocket's pentagram might have a weak string that can deattach anytime, someone can slip on it, get stuck in someone's food, or lose sentimental value which the business is not responsible of. They're doing him a favor. I hope that cleared it up. That's really about it. |
| Elara Posts: 4395/9736 |
I understand what you are saying Seticus, however you are generalizing a lot and being way to hypothetical about it. |
| Makura Posts: 1296/1555 |
Originally posted by Makura Makura, I know this will make me sounds rude, but what if Pockets was bending around few words that lean him in "righteous" act? You guys might be friend, I don't know, but even people that twists word around eventually can be of a less help. Elara, if you are confused about some that I was trying to point out, let me know. I don't want the two of us get any wrong idea and it would be really rude that I would insult you, or Pockets, or Makura, or anyone's religion. My obversation is that religion discrimination get more out of hand during a job, people are going to think that discrimination will become available for whatever they FEEL discriminated at. But it is THEIR personal affairs to deal with, not ours. So in the end, Pockets must talk to the business owner directly to directly and reaches to an understandment, because Pockets can be lying about it, the business owner can be lying about it, all we can do is act in the middle (a negoatiator) and hopefully reaches to an agreement. Actually in order to sound rude, I think that I would have actually had to have understood what you were saying. We're obviously not in the direct line of fire, or what would there really be ot debate about. I think you took EVERYTHING out of context and twisted it around to generalize every opinion in the thread and I believe that that directly defeats the purpose of people posting their opinions. If you we wanted you to sum it all up for all of us none of us would have posted. Nothing personal, but I think your post was general to all matters of opinion and completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. |
| Rauni Posts: 1312/1351 |
Originally posted by Elara Well, most job requires dress code, I thought there was dress code at where he worked despite being family business or not. Well, since Makura answered my question (thank you), I meant no offense if I sounds so aggressive in my previous post, Elara. I just simply think that people get overreacted with this whole religion affair. And as for your statement about having people wearing their own religion symbol, I agreed. But if you have to work in a Christain Bookshore (chances are, you won't), it would be wrong if they completely refuses services to you if you're a wiccan or wears like one. I'm saying generally that religion discrimination IS against the law, business disruption is something entirely different. Heck, it's like having to brought a mp3 player (say, an Ipod?) to work and that particular person can only listen to it, whereas you can't do anything about it, but to take it to the boss. I don't care if the business owner HATE satanism or not, it is STILL wrong for him to fire on religion affair, but it is not wrong to fire him for not following a procedure/rules in his job. It's kind of like saying that you fired a black guy because he didn't handed in his report in time (since he was busy and all) but didn't fire the white guy because he handed it before deadline AND being lazy about it. The black would feel that despites all of that effort, he would be discrimiated upon hearing that the white got promoted while being lazy but he got fired. Think as this way, religion is a general term. You can easily abuse it so much that the judges may think that you are acting like you are the right guy, when the business owner is trying to avoid those. Even with the freedom of speech come with limited stuff. Take some of our cartoons like Scooby Doo. They can't and are not allowed to say any nasty word. Just applies similarity to religion. If you have too much freedom of religion, war WILL break loose. Something the government is trying to control with. I'm not saying that Pockets was wrong, it is not right for calling people ignorance or bigots for people who does NOT understand their religion. Plus, what if the business owner was talking to customer who have a complaint toward to Pockets? That was the thing I am looking for because I remembered that (while I was at work) someone got fired for not being nice/scary with customer. Originally posted by Elara Try disability. Actually, wait, no, it didn't happened one time and everything went smoothly. I got a warning for having few money off but that was it. It isn't even close to saying: "You sucks at listening, I'm going have to fire you." Don't get any wrong idea that I hate religion, I simply don't like religion stuff. Even though I do believes in angels, demons, ghosts, and the like, I'm not a huge fan of every religion and try to keep an open mind. I mean, how come there are severals of different gods and yet they NEVER fought or argue about life? (In short, why are there so many religions that gods created for people to live in peace, not creating disasters?) Originally posted by Makura Makura, I know this will make me sounds rude, but what if Pockets was bending around few words that lean him in "righteous" act? You guys might be friend, I don't know, but even people that twists word around eventually can be of a less help. Originally posted by Nagis This is an best option for him, at most. Elara, if you are confused about some that I was trying to point out, let me know. I don't want the two of us get any wrong idea and it would be really rude that I would insult you, or Pockets, or Makura, or anyone's religion. My obversation is that religion discrimination get more out of hand during a job, people are going to think that discrimination will become available for whatever they FEEL discriminated at. But it is THEIR personal affairs to deal with, not ours. So in the end, Pockets must talk to the business owner directly to directly and reaches to an understandment, because Pockets can be lying about it, the business owner can be lying about it, all we can do is act in the middle (a negoatiator) and hopefully reaches to an agreement. |
| venomouslobster Posts: 439/444 |
Pockets should carve a pentagram into his face and if anyone bothers him, he should say that he "fell down some stairs"....then begin crying.
that'll keep em wondering |
| Makura Posts: 1294/1555 |
Actually, Elara. THere is a dress code, but I don't think he's ever been presented with anyhting that gives rules. THey keep changing them and giving him shit. And if their is a dress code it CANNOT stipulate that pentagrams and pentagrams alone cannot be worn. So yeah, you're pretty much right and I agree with you. |
| Elara Posts: 4390/9736 |
Seticus, there is no dress code at his work. If there was a dress code (like at Disneyland or something) then I can understand it because they don't let anyone wear a symbol. But since the other coworkers are permitted to wear their symbols it is wrong that he cannot wear his.
And for the record, I read that section of Title VII on the side of the lunch menu at my grade school every day. It had a number to call to report discrimination. It might be different at a private school (Catholic school for example), but in public schools discrimination is illegal. Any school or business regulated by the U.S government is subject to these rules. Even private business, because it ensures that someone can go work for a company and not be discriminated against... or would you like to be harrassed at your place of business because your boss is a different religion, or race, or gender, etc? |
| 天国JOE Posts: 1660/2999 |
Yes, people are entitled to their own opinion, but there's no need to outright insult somebody like that. Criticize sure, but just calling someone an "emo fuck" doesn't even have any merit (the latter insult doesn't either). Don't be a jerk. Ala warned for the only time.
For the whole silly pentagram issue, it is wrong to make someone not wear/conceal their religious symbol, but it's not something to get too upset about. Just go with it, work, get your paycheck. |
| Bitmap Posts: 4255/7838 |
with you calling someone an emo Fuck, I sure hope so 
Last thing we need is a flaming user.  |
| Bitmap Posts: 4254/7838 |
What the hell?
I would imput my 2 cents here, but A mod will take care of him. Anyways, like I said, if you dont feel confortable, why dont you talk to the owner about it? Say you are free to express yourself, and if he has a problem, you can discuss it with him. |
| Rauni Posts: 1310/1351 |
Originally posted by Makura Like what Vulkar said, if you basically have one dozen of Muslims on one sid, one dozen of Jew on the other, they may think that their religion is much more superior because of the right god. They'll try to kill each other rather then to convert each other because they do not agrees with each other well. However, that's just religion stuff. What we're really talking about is business v.s. expression of religion. Some stores such as Hot Topic doesn't give a damn on what you wear (even if you are fully gothic, wiccans, and what not), as long as you do good work, you're still working. However, work in a serious business such as restaurant or model-working company, no, religion items can NOT be brought to work. Hell, I don't know which religion does it but their belief in their god allow them to wear turban on their head (if they want) all of the time, even during work but they are not allows to take every religion items into their business. It would creates great amount of disturance for other people and thus, think that they are in war with other people of different religion. Originally posted by Elara Originally posted by Title VII This one, right? If it wasn't the employees complaining about it, then yeah. But here is another thought, what if it was the customers complaining it to one of the employee/employer who was discussing it? As far as I am concerned, most business place follow a dress code to AVOID religion affairs. I mean, if you were too devoted in Wiccan and brought it to Taco Bell, McDonald, Wendy, Prom Clothing Store, Toys R Us, etc., people will immediately think when they pull their carts up to your aisle, whatever, and they saw you wearing wiccan items: "I wonders if these items are also for wiccans as well. I better use them less and less everyday because that girl seem to ignore the dress code, I don't think I can trust her." Places like Hot Topic reveals of "dark or gothic" nature so whenever I'm with my brother or mother, we never go in it. Mostly because my mother/brother thinks that Hot Topic (since this is a complete obversation) are filled with nasty gothic stuff. For once, I didn't mind entering it because they got stuff that are humorous and that was only with Desroth. As you can see, people are still scared when one person have the right to expresses freely of their religion that could be inferring their business. Making Taco Bell more gothic, Hot Topic more wiccans, McDonald more Egyptain, and Toy R Us more... Jewish. What would really happened if THEIR religion screws up the business they had? It is not really the matter of whether he is offending the religion of other people or not, it is because Pockets may be violating the dressing code instead. And violating the dress code have slight to no impact on what is YOUR religion. Taco Bell didn't even give a flying fuck on my religion, mostly because I was following THEIR DRESS CODE. My friend's friend, Dru, wears one of those turban since it is part of his religion to keep it on all of the time, works at Games Stop. But people STILL goes there because he follows majority of dress code and kept the environment open to customers. In short, just follow the damn dress code and avoid (or as least conceal) bring any of your religion stuff to work. You got them on your own spare time. |
| Makura Posts: 1291/1555 |
I think what you guys are missing is that they made him take it off because it's a Satanic symbol. Not that I have anything against satanism, at all, but the point is it's NOT a satanic symbol. The satanists were uncreative in picking the pentagram to invert. However there is a definite differance between the two. And perhaps his bosses wouldn't have asked him to remove it if they themselves new it's true meaning.
Now even if it WERE a satanic symbol he still has EVERY right to wear it reguardless of who is offended. Anyone has the right to display their religion proudly regardless of what the majority think. |
| Lord Vulkas Mormonus Posts: 2116/4541 |
Originally posted by Elara ...there are? You know, I could swear that there was this one jewish girl who went to school wearing that thing that covered her hair and got in huge trouble for it... Anyway, on the relavent topic, I'm going to ask a question about that law...is it in fact moral to restrict a private business? If I ran a business, I think that I'd like to know that I can fire, lay off, or run my business however I choose. It's privately owned, and as such, the government should have absolutely no place in the way I run it. Any thoughts on that subject? |
| Elara Posts: 4389/9736 |
Again, I notice that anytime that I post some relevant facts about the topic my post is completly ignored.
And the cross comment I made wasn't serious, however such tactics have been used effeciently in the past to prove that one is being discriminated against. It did offend pockets before that though, as he stated in his first post... but generally if you say "the cross offends me" you are ignored and dismissed. And you are always yourself, even while at work, hence why there are laws protecting employees. |
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