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| Topos Posts: 12/21 |
Originally posted by geeogree Seconding this, with the exception that it's a FUCKING HUGE deal as well as an important distinction. |
| geeogree Posts: 239/246 |
"Scientific fact doesn't change."
That's not even remotely true.... the way science works is the opposite of that.... science doesn't create "fact".... it's tested theories that are true or not under certain conditions.... the only way to prove a theory to be true is to be unable to disprove it. So, you're not proving any theory to be true, you're only proving that you can't find a condition that makes it untrue. While that's not a BIG deal it is an important distinction. |
| Squire Vince Posts: 207/1586 |
That was actually a major part of my arguement. Science is definite and it can be found again and again. Scientific fact doesn't change. but if humans were to die out and a new species were to inhabit earth. (also saying they could read human languages) what is to stop them from seeing Harry Potter as a God? but they will be able to understand that gravity states the fact that what goes up must come down. |
| geeogree Posts: 238/246 |
I've looked at both sides of this debate over and over and found that it just doesn't matter.
God could create the universe and humans in any way he wanted. You also need to remember that Moses (who wrote Genesis) was trying to explain the creation of the universe and the Earth to people who likely understood very little about the universe at all.... back then people didn't even know the Milky Way Galaxy was what it was. They had no idea that there are hundreds of billions of stars in this galaxy alone and that there are potentially hundreds of billions of other galaxies.... How do you explain that to a people who are slaves and spend most of their time working? You can't. This is why I don't take the creation story in Genesis too literally. But like I said, in the end it doesn't matter if God used the big bang to create the universe or if he simply created matter out of "nothing" (you can create matter from energy though  .... and energy may seem like "nothing" if you don't understand how it works)
either way, it's an interesting debate but totally off the point of religion in general. |
| Rogue Posts: 5906/11918 |
Well, this is why Switzer-France has the Large Hadron Collider -- to test out if crashing particles together would create the hypothetical Higgs-boson (aptly dubbed the "God particle") which is supposed to show how matter might seemingly be formed from nothing.
Scientists have proven that the radiation and dark matter floating around in space are the remaining pulses from the theorized Big Bang, backed with the fact that space is constantly changed temperature and so on. Now.. I am agnostic. I feel that arguing science vs. religion does nothing but make people upset and the energy spent on it could easily be better used to buying each other a drink and shooting the shit about something else. I recently went to a presentation about the progress of our ideas of the universe -- how we thought it was just us with the sun and the moon revolving around us and so on and going all the way to realizing that the universe is bigger than we, here in our Goldilocks Zone, could comprehend. I damn near cried when he ended on the note that "we are all made of stardust" and we're looking to explore the universe "because we just want to go home." |
| Lord Vulkas Mormonus Posts: 3603/4541 |
Well, it may give the desperate something to hold on to, a cahnce of hope. Indeed, Christ even talks about how how those who are heavy laden and come to him will recieve help. But, the difference is, I believe religion helps FAR more than you (Vince) believe it helps.
I still have some things to say about cavemen, but my right index finger is injured, so you're going to have to wait until I can type long posts again. |
| Phoenixocracy Posts: 959/2746 |
Originally posted by Elara Correct. Sorry for the typo; I forgot the word 'not'. And be careful what you say about religion, Vince. Not believing is one thing, but do not call those who do believe desperate. |
| Elara Posts: 5816/9736 |
Well, also, religion gives you something to explain the unknown. We don't know what caused the Big Bang or were the matter came from in the first place. One day we might figure that out, who knows?
Phoenix, I am going to assume that you meant you agreed with me about us NOT being created in an image. |
| Squire Vince Posts: 172/1586 |
I am completely done with debating this with my family. I just had the following conversation.
"Okay scientifically particles came together to explode and form the universe over multiple years." "Where did the particle come from?" "I don't know where did God come from?" "That doesn't matter, you need explanations in science not religion." Yeah, that happened. UGH! Although I do agree with the main consensus here that the two beliefs can occur together, but never overstepping each other. Also religion gives the desperate something to hold them steady so it also works in that sense. |
| Phoenixocracy Posts: 947/2746 |
I agree with Vulkar. Very well spoken, my friend.
Adding to what Vulkar says, the universe is made up of only 4% of the universe is made up of atoms. According to the Anthropic principle, if the universe were even a little different, we would not be here. If the difference in mass between protons and neutrons were zero, or even very small(less than the mass of a electron, which is .511 MeV/c^2), then there would be no atoms. Electrons would be captured to protons and never released again. While I am not a religious person myself, I cannot help but question certain things. Why do the things above work only in 4% of the universe? There is no plausible explanation to explain why the masses are different, other than they simply are. Things like this make me question a God. I feel like if there was one, they would help the world and so on. But if there was not one, why is the world here? As Vulkar states, an outside force must act upon the mass to put it into motion. If all of the mass of the universe were in the particle, how did it explode? Now whether God takes a physical manifestation, I know not. Obviously, they could have only been energy before the Big Bang, if all the mass were located inside of this particle. So I believe Elara to be correct in the assumption that we are modeled after Him, or Her, for that matter. Cave people do exist, I believe. I do not know if thy lived in caves, though. We evolved from primates, meaning we lived in the jungle--the trees. We may have used stone as tools, as monkey's use sticks and the sort. I believe the caves were used as shelter only in the worst conditions. The drawing could have been their form of story telling when it got too bored while waiting out a storm. Everything needs entertainment. So, yes. 'Cavemen' existed. But to deny a greater force above all of us seems weak minded. I acknowledge something, but I do not know what it is. |
| Elara Posts: 5811/9736 |
A very rational take on it Vulkar. I am sure the born-agains might rip you to shreds, but I have never been one for literal interpretation of holy scripture anyway. I mean, according to my religion my gods die once a year and are born again in an endless cycle, but I know this is representative of the cycle of the seasons that pagan religions are based in so I don't go overboard about it.
Personally, I kinda feel the same way you described it, who says that some higher power didn't set off the Big Bang? Technically, by doing that, you could say that this higher power, call it whatever you will, did create everything. Cave people. They existed, there is too much empirical evidence to say otherwise. This again goes back to my previous statement, if a higher power set off the Big Bang, then they did create us because how else would the matter have got there? As to the whole "shaping in His image" thing that the Judeo-Christians believe, well that I feel is most likely not true and was put in there by the writers to make us feel important. Like Prometheus giving us fire or something like that. So yeah, I think live evolved just like science says it has, because again there is just too much evidence to ignore. |
| Lord Vulkas Mormonus Posts: 3601/4541 |
I want everyone, for this discussion to picture a perfect God, one who can do only good, and had the power to shape everything in the universe.
Now, my question for you is, does your God disobey the laws of the universe? Can he create matter, which according to our science, cannot be created or destroyed, but only changed? My God doesn't. I do not believe in an impossible God. But as many of you know, I am a very strong Mormon, in fact, I plan on leaving to teach people my gospel for two years. How then can I believe in science over God? The answer is simple, God and science do not contradict. Many people say that it is either God or The Big Bang. However, lets look at some basic science real quick. The Big Bang implies that all of the mass in the universe was once in one place, a place smaller than a grain of sand. Like a black hole, only much bigger. Then this piece of matter explodes, and all the mass in the universe is spread out. Some pieces of matter form into planets, some asteroids, some simply little particles that float around. Let's back up a little bit. This particle, before exploding, sat around for, as far as we know, a near infinite amount of time before exploding. As anyone familiar with chemistry knows, and object at rest can only be put into motion by outside forces. A catalyst, if you will. So my question is, why could God not have been the catalyst? Why could he not have created the Big Bang as well? But many people say that God created the earth out of nothing, because of Genesis 1:1 "IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Okay, so he created it. Where does it say he did it out of nothing? So that's my beliefs on creation, I'll give you some good stuff about cavemen a little later. |
| Squire Vince Posts: 166/1586 |
Recently I was conversing with my family about the topic of God v. The Big Bang. Now I (me, personally, not everyone in the world) feel as though we were created by the Big Bang, my main focus for that belief is the religious view of the origin of man. Science tells that we have evolved slowly over time but religion leads us to believe that we are sculpted by God or atleast were. But if that were the case what happened with cave "people"? If you have any thoughts or wish to discuss the topic of God v. Science please feel free to post. |
