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| Xeogaming Forums - Debate Shrine - Questions on 9/11 Report |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie!          Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| I tend to protect myself to an extent. Information is out there. It's just a matter of finding it. Any information that I do or do not know is left to the confines of my brain or wherever it is. Why does my room smell like almonds? Ah, cyanide...oh, wait, almonds. Okay.
But, you're well-founded in being afraid to ask me. It's best that it stays that way. |
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Bitmap #1 Enhancement Shaman US Ravenholdt  Since: 09-05-04 From: His Laughin' Place Since last post: 4569 days Last activity: 4563 days |
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Originally posted by Zabuza Then there we have it, This thread might as well end up as assumptions of our own General opinions... But...I dare to ask, mind telling us what you know? If you dont wanna answer, thats fine, Im just pretty curious... Wow, im actually enjoying posting in the Debate House |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| Yes, I do mind. And, no, you're not getting anything I do or do not know. My information, regardless of whether or not I know it, is strictly confidential if, in fact, it exists. What I presented before was strickly stipulation on the basis of observation and interpretation. Whether or not I actually believe it will not be divulged on this board. | |||
Elara Divine Mamkute Dark Elf Goddess Chaos Imp Penguins Fan Ms. Invisable  Since: 08-15-04 From: Ferelden Since last post: 113 days Last activity: 113 days |
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| You do what you have to do Zabuza, I respect that. Thank you for the breakdown of the Pentagon thing, I'm sure that will really help the people who can't watch the video because of it's massive size, because that was the main thing that caught my attention. I can hear plausible explantions for the WTC things... but the Pentagon one... you couldn't convince me that there wasn't something covered up there. | |||
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| Consider for a moment the time from initial impact to the time that each tower collapsed, and the pattern in which each tower collapsed. The towers collapsed in a uniform implosion fashion, falling straight down as opposed to outward or falling over. The mere impact of two jet liners and the ensuing fire could not have been the only factor in the demolition of two towers. Oh no, the world doesn't work that way.
For your perusal, consider the following: The South Tower 
Frame 147 shows a row of explosives detonating right across the east face at the 79th floor. Frame 203 shows a row of explosives detonating right across the east face at the 75th floor. The middle photos show the dust cloud from the explosions outlined in red. The end photos show the relative positions of the two lines of dust and debris. It has been claimed that the explosions of dust that span the east face of the tower, were caused by air being forced from the windows as the floors above collapsed. This explanation is obviously incorrect. If it was correct, such lines of dust would have been expelled from the windows of each floor in succession. That is, we would have seen such lines of dust expelled from floors 79, 78, 77, 76 and 75 in succession, but what we observe is an explosion of dust at floor 79, no new clouds of dust for a few floors, then another (larger) explosion of dust at floor 75. It is entirely possible that government agents, or otherwise, made their way to those floors after evacuating and quickly placed explosives across the east face of those floors in order to trigger the pancake-effect theory (ha!) collapse. Considering the time difference, and the fact that agents of the government were lost in the collapse, it is highly a possibility. The North Tower: Lines of what appears to be explosives can also been seen here. Almost perfect lines of dust: 
Once again, note that the second layer of explosions is much more powerful than the first and that the dust cloud from the first initially obscures that of the second. Also, note the large orange areas of hot gas from the explosions. Recall, that this was about two hours after the aircraft struck the building, so there would be essentially no flammable material left on the floors from which the flash emanates (as the fire would have already consumed it all). Note that the horizontal explosions of dust on the leftmost side of the tower are already visible and expanding in the first frame. These continue their expansion through frame nine and subsequent frames. Similarly, explosions of dust become apparent across the entire width of both (visible) faces of the tower, however, between frames 001 and 009 the television mast on top of the tower makes no downward movement at all. This shows that the horizontal explosions of dust and debris precede the collapse and thus cannot be the cause of it (in fact, it is these explosions that initiate the collapse). 
The above animated graphic alternates the first and 67th frames. It shows a classic controlled demolition of a 12 story building (the top 12 stories of the North Tower). Strange how the roofline collapses so evenly, I guess, that all the central core columns and all the perimeter wall columns collapsed simultaneously. Some coincidence eh? Since the visible evidence points to only two layers of explosives per tower, one has to conclude that the aircraft were directed to hit particular floors (possibly by homing beacons in the towers). This would also explain the total lack of solid evidence for the "Arab hijackers" hypothesis (there was however, a quantity of laughable, obviously manufactured evidence, indicating that this was an attempt to frame the Arabs). Of course the visible explosions (or at least their dust clouds) are only part of the story, as the main weight supporting columns in the central core also had to be weakened before the towers would collapse in the way they did. But what is visible, is more than enough evidence, to conclude that the towers were deliberately demolished. A close look at the video/photos shows that the collapse begins at the 98th floor, then the 99th floor collapses onto the 98th, then the 100th floor collapses onto the 98th, then the 101th floor collapses onto the 98th, then the 102th floor collapses onto the 98th, etc until the second line of detonations initiates the final collapse. So once again, we have the disintegration of the tower above the impact floors, before the collapse of the tower below the impact floors. Interestingly, this observation disproves the so called pancake theory, where one floor collapses onto the next lower floor, causing that floor to also collapse (not that the pancake theory made any sense anyway). Here, what we see is 5 or 6 floors in a row, all falling onto the 98th floor, which does not collapse (until the second line of explosives are detonated, taking out its support). The pancake theory would have the 98th floor collapsing onto the 97th, causing that to collapse onto the 96th, causing that to collapse onto the 95th, etc. Animated GIF of North Tower collapse Note: Image is at least 1MB, and may take longer to download on slower connections. Then there's the issue of WTC-7. Why would this building collapse straight down? 
For the building to collapse in this fashion, all of the load bearing supports would have had to fail at exactly the same time. In relation to flight 77, I refer you to the information on this site. Isn't it odd that most of the passenger list consistent of government affiliated personnel? And if no plane was found at the Pentagon site, where did that plane and those passengers end up? Pancake effect: Due to the design of the world trade center towers, the official pancake theory is not plausible. Even if the pancake theory were correct, total collapse time for the WTC towers should be a minimum 55 seconds. Both towers collapse in under 15 seconds. Disclaimer: This is information that I acquired by means that I'd rather not divulge. I can neither acknowledge nor deny anything stated or implied within this information. I can also neither confirm nor deny my beliefs structure towards any of the acts that either occured or did not occur on, around, or near September 11th, 2001. (Last edited by Zabuza on 04-01-06 04:47 AM) |
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Elara Divine Mamkute Dark Elf Goddess Chaos Imp Penguins Fan Ms. Invisable Since: 08-15-04 From: Ferelden Since last post: 113 days Last activity: 113 days |
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| Hmn, interesting and much better explained than in the article.
Oh god, the pictures are huge though. |
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Bitmap #1 Enhancement Shaman US Ravenholdt Since: 09-05-04 From: His Laughin' Place Since last post: 4569 days Last activity: 4563 days |
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Originally posted by Elara |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| I'm not contesting that people died. I'm not contesting that planes flew into the two towers. I'm not denying the possibility of terrorist attack. I just find it odd that a 757 can fly into the pentagon and disintegrate leaving not so much as a single piece of airplane debris anywhere in the crash site. I also find it odd that a building that was able to remain standing for over thirty years and sustain earthquakes, hurricane level winds, people, office furniture, and a giant antenna would collapse under the impact of a commercial jet airplane. Straight down. Like a demolition.
If the powers that be are attempting cover-up, or were fabricating attempts at a viable reason to start a war and have the support of 80% of all Americans, then they could have at least realized that while most of the US and the world is blind to the laws of physics, the rest of us aren't. A pancake theory doesn't work. We now have the technology to analyze videos and pictures. To know that if a building collapses, it doesn't expel crushed concrete and steel out into the street. To know that the individually constructed sections of the building would fall in-tact into the street rather than in a huge pile of rubble. To realize that each of the collapsed buildings fell in a manner similar to a controlled demolition. I'm not going into conspiracy theory. I just want to know why something so accidental had so many incidents of deliberate actions. Why did so many cameras capture the demise of WTC 7 if it was so sudden. Why was there already a few cameras following the first jet plane before it hit? Why were all videotapes of the Pentagon (except for "official" footage) confiscated and never released? I don't know. I thought we were over the whole cover-up thing. I say, Americans need to know now. Not fifty years from now when Bush decides to have someone document his memoirs and he tells us about the plan Cheney had to start a war with Iraq using jet planes and the WTC towers. |
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geeogree Ninji Since: 10-19-04 Since last post: 5187 days Last activity: 280 days |
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| I think the reason why I don't believe that conspiracy thoeries is that I want to believe that people aren't like that....
I want to believe that the leader of a country wouldn't sacrifice the lives of thousands of people just so he could go to war. I want to believe that people are better than that.... that the leaders of countries are better than that. Becuase if this theory is true.... then in my mind what else is true.... and what else has been lied about.... not just by this administration by all of them. And not just that country, but mine and others. I believe that the world is better than that.... and I hope I'm not proven wrong.... |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| So, you want to live in dreamworld utopia ignoring the innate characteristics of human nature? Impossible in this world. | |||
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geeogree Ninji Since: 10-19-04 Since last post: 5187 days Last activity: 280 days |
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| I'm sure it is impossible... but my view of the world is more positive than one in which the president of a country has something to do with the deaths of thousands of his own people in 2 towers so that he could go to war....
I do want to live in a world that is good. Where people help each other and are striving to improve the world.... not orchestrate plots for war or otherwise.... I guess my world view is more positive than most.... |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| It could just be the corrupting sense of having worked in government and seen the perils of retail at Disneyland, but I've lost hope on that dream. It only exists in Final Fantasy and science-fiction. It's not possible in our world. In the end, human nature is corrupted by some kind of wealth. Whether it be financial, power, educational, environmental or otherwise, human beings are not capable of living together in peace for long. It just doesn't work that way. If it did, there wouldn't be wars and people would realize that we're all the same--human.
But, it doesn't work that way. We're split into races. Palistinians and Iraqis fight each other over religious beliefs. Mexicans and Puerto Ricans hate each other over citizenship issues. I hate Erk cuz he's a dumbass. We're split into subclasses. I'm not saying that our President accidentally caused the deaths of thousands of people so that he could create the Department of Homeland Security and start a war in an effort to restart the economy in much the same fashion that his father had done before him, but he's too much of a numbnut to see that his method isn't working so far...where was I going with this?...oh, yeah...I'm just saying that the physics don't fit the stories. Based on the constructions of the towers, it just seems odd that the way the towers did collapse doesn't fit the physics of the situation. Or, where is that 757 that the Pentagon seemed to just swallow up? Are those people still alive and living cover-up lives instead? Did flight 77 ever exist? Are apples made of oranges? Does semen glow in the dark? Where are my car keys? |
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Elara Divine Mamkute Dark Elf Goddess Chaos Imp Penguins Fan Ms. Invisable Since: 08-15-04 From: Ferelden Since last post: 113 days Last activity: 113 days |
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Originally posted by geeogree No one wants to believe that people are like that. I don't want it to be true, but I keep seeing things that point towards it being so. It breaks my heart to even think about it. I know it can happen... anyone is capable of doing something like this. Machiavelli said centuries ago that all that is important is to build a strong nation, and that to do it you have to use morality as a mask and that the ends would justify the means. Leaders have been following that advice ever since. It leaves you cold and bitter, unable to really believe anything that you hear or see. You question everything because you have no other way of dealing with a world where so many things you hear are lies. Humans are a cruel species, and it seems that they are becoming moreso every year. Leaders are no different, no better, than their subjects... many times they are worse. Edited for spelling. Curse you Typo Bunnies!!! (Last edited by Elara on 04-05-06 01:50 AM) |
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geeogree Ninji Since: 10-19-04 Since last post: 5187 days Last activity: 280 days |
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| Elara: it's nice to see someone that has some idea of what I mean.... even if we don't always agree on much
Zabuzza: I know my idea of what humans could or should be like probably isn't possible on a grand scale.... but I know people that are genuinely nice and helpful and responsible. I guess it's frustrating that the world is the way it is and I'm pretty much in no position to do a damn thing about it. Sure, I argue my opinions and what not on message boards... but when it comes to real life... what difference does it make whether someone is straight or gay.... black or white.... people are people (and there is less difference in races among humans than in breeds of dog.... just thought that was interesting  ) I take my right to disagree quite liberally when I'm given the chance, but I don't see how people can hate each other like they do. I know people that I dislike, or that frustrate me.... but I don't hate people. It's a foreign concept to me. So when I see the things I see in this world.... sometimes I don't know exactly how to react....
why can't people just have jobs and have families and friends and go to church, or mosque or whatever and just live and be happy? [sigh].... and with that entirely off topic post.... [the end] |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| Because we don't live at Disneyland.
I go to work and have fun and have friends and live and walk around my house in my underwear, but there are things in this world that are lame. I see Elara's point, but I'm set in the mentality she describes. There are nice people in the world (and they annoy the heck out of me), and there are good people in the world (they must be hiding something), but when you've grown up as I have (and you haven't) you tend to look at the world in a different light than that of the populace. However, we are off-topic here. Point is, the physics by which the structures collapsed just doesn't make sense with the explanations presented. |
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GuardianOni Shaman  Since: 09-07-04 From: The dark path Since last post: 5853 days Last activity: 5312 days |
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| Actually Zabuza, I'm going to disagree with you on several points.
First about the pancaking collapse. You wonder why a strike from the side would cause this, and assume that explosives were in place to do the even spread damage that was needed to cause it to "pancake". You seem to be forgetting that the tower didn't collapse when the plane hit, a few seconds after, or even a minute after. I remember on 9/11 I woke up to the news about the first tower, and turned the TV on to see the second crash live. Then proceeded to drive to school. (a twenty minuet drive.) Where I watch the towers collapse about ten minuets later. Let us consider this. Dose that mean the supports were weakened to the point where it took roughly a half an hour to collapse? Doubtful. Or that the burning jet fuel caused it to collapse then. Maybe. But there was a fire, and it was quite well spread. Immediately introduced into the insulation, carpet, and paneling, and every other flammable. Up to gas lines. (Note* If there were any. I can't say for sure of not on if there were any natural gas lines. But judging by the date the towers were put up, and need for hot water, heaters, and other stuffs that people need There probably were.) And burning something from the inside out like that would evenly disperse the damage. One might think that this fire might not be hot enough to weaken a steel support. Well, I've got to things on this point. First it would. And I can bring a personal account into this. ((Elara was there too)) At a bonfire of wood, and only a little lighter fluid we built a pyre the caused the heat to be well felt about a hundred yards way ((Although it was in the direction of the wind)) But this isn't the point. The point is that with only a wood fire we heated up a section of rebar so much that hitting in with the but on an axe caused it to flatten. (Like forging a sword) This was a peace of rebar that had no pressure on it. Stand it up an put some weight on it then and you can guess what would happen. (It would collapse for those who can’t guess) Second. The towers were not built with full steel construction. A lot of the supports were iron. This I know. And Iron has a lower melting temp, and is softer than steel. And as for the "Pancakeing" itself. Well, every time I see footage of the towers collapsing I see one side drop a little first, and the other side a little later. Even in your animation there is a slight difference in the dropping. You might say, "it's only a little difference it couldn't matter" Well it dose. You first must remember that all pictures were taken from a good distance away. The perspective making the difference seem smaller than it is. Second, try and bend concrete a few degrees. It doesn’t work. It crumbles. Whew... that's a lot... And there is more... You want to know where the wreckage from the planes went? Umm... planes are built out of aluminum. And yes it burns. (and quite well.(I watched as a trailer made out of aluminum burn to the ground. There was literally nothing left) As well as scatters. When the planes hit I remember seeing wreckage being scattered about. Do I believe that 'people' are incapable of planning, and carrying out a conspiracy about this? Not even close. Have I not "grown-up" enough to realize certain aspects of human nature? Ummm... I've seen the dregs of our species. I've *ahem* worked for/with them. While Zabuza has dealt with the darker side of 'official'. I've dealt with the other side. So, who's going to attack this first? |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| I was spewing stuff I found online. I never once implied that I believed any of this. In fact, I placed disclaimers throughout most of my posts neither acknowledging nor denying anything I posted. So, this isn't my opinion, it's just me being a copier to everything I find online.
However, I have not just worked with the darker side of government, as you put it, but have worked for the law enforcement, by the book, "lighter" side of government as well. As per plans on the south tower, there were natural gas lines running up to the first 30 stories of both towers. After that, with the invention of portable, electric heating units, the remaining floors were outfitted with electric water heaters. A natural occuring pancake effect as was detailed to occur in which one floor fell upon another floor, upon another floor, upon another floor, all the way down would not work given the circumstances and materials used to prevent that exact thing from happening. Never once did I imply that the towers collapsed at impact. I for one, don't really care about what happened to the towers. They were hit, they collapsed at some point, it was rubble, stuff happened, people died, end of story. My questions lie in what happened at the Pentagon. If a 757 hit the building, why the small hole? And where is the airplane debris? Why such a light passenger list? Why were the passengers mostly military and government? Disclaimer:I cannot certify any of the above statements as fact, nor do acknowledge nor deny their validity or lack of validity. I can neither deny nor confirm anything that may or may not have been stated and/or implied by any of my actions, words, or situations--including past, present and future occurances. (Last edited by Zabuza on 04-12-06 07:09 AM) |
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Elara Divine Mamkute Dark Elf Goddess Chaos Imp Penguins Fan Ms. Invisable Since: 08-15-04 From: Ferelden Since last post: 113 days Last activity: 113 days |
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| For your consideration:
Shorter, more dial-up friendly flash of the Pentagon Strike Surprisingly, my own mother sent this to me... little Mrs. Patriot who still hates the Japanese for Pearl Harbor. |
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GuardianOni Shaman Since: 09-07-04 From: The dark path Since last post: 5853 days Last activity: 5312 days |
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| Lets see... Could it be that the pentagon, probably one of the most paranoid places in the world, would ever release any thing concerning attacks on it. All of our three letter organizations have there heads in places where they need a proctologist to cure a head ache.
Also could it be that what ever what left after burning up simply buried under the rubble? And have any of these conspiracy theorist every gone through where ever they dumped the rubble and sifted through it? I highly doubt it. These people include one guy who claimed "In manual mode, a plane cannot survive more than 1.5 Gs." Oh shut up. If that were true, planes would bee falling apart as they take off, and never leave the ground. An as for the sound of a missile. I live under a final approach for Long Beach International Airport. And on certain days the vortices drop down and sound like a missile/rocket going over head. (I don't feel like going over what vortices are. Look it up) Also when coming in for landing. (And that's the 'maneuver' used. (These planes can barrel-roll)) You cut power to compensate for ground-effects. Which is something you do learn from any flight instructor. I just think that there are a few people who are too eager to yell "CONSPERICY!" Do I think that it couldn't be? And we couldn't have been lied too? No. Of course not. They would lie about the weather if they thought they needed to. (Or could get away with it (Assuming they haven't already)) By why go to all that trouble if it was to silence a few people? There are easier ways to do that. And it would have caused much less commotion. And leave a lot less witnesses/controversy. Occam’s Razor. It doesn’t make sense. |
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Stitch Roy Koopa Holy crap, it is the RoboCoonie! Since: 08-20-04 From: California Since last post: 946 days Last activity: 946 days |
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| Exactically.
It just doesn't make sense, but they are relying on 90% of the population just taking the information spoon-fed to them because they don't have the sense to educate themselves--or they're too lazy. I mean, you live on LGB airport approach zone, and I worked at LAX for a year. We know our stuff. Elara's dad work(ed?) for Boeing for several years, as well as other people that I know. One of Boeing's plants is right next to our college. Then there's physics. And facts. Stuff, no matter how well buried, leaves debris. You'll find it in clean-up. I don't really care anymore. Desensitizing has done its job, and all I wanna know is...Secretary of Homeland Security is a pedophile and I get dismissed over hearsay on my LJ? WTF is up with that? |
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